6 Men on the Floor

[bob jenkins]

Should have been a T.

[ma_ref]

Shame on the officials twice:

- First for allowing the ball to be put in play with 6 people on the court
- Second for not calling the T

When I wave in subs, I always keep my hand raised (open palm) to let my partner know I'm not ready for a live ball yet. I take a quick count of the number of players, and when I have 10...5 from each team...not 6 and 4 , I lower my hand, and we're ready to continue play.

I had a similar situation a few years ago. It was during a kids rec league game, we had a T for a player not being listed in the official book. Turns out that the team had 11 players on the bench, but only 10 listed. I don't want to speak for everyone, but I think it's safe to say that most people (again, not everyone), don't count the number of players for rec league ball. I always do for high school, but not youth league stuff. Anyway, I tell the coach we're going to have a T on his team for a player not listed. He says to me, "But aren't you supposed to verify the number of players prior to the start?" I told him "Yes coach I am...but as the head coach you're the one still ultimately responsible for getting all of your players listed in the book." Fortunately he agreed and left it at that. Shame on me for not counting the players, but we still ended up giving the T, as should have been done here with the 6 players on the court.

[Back In The Saddle]

I find that there is a much greater liklihood of having six players on the floor in youth rec league than in HS ball. Why would you not count players in rec ball? If nothing else it would maintain keep the habit of counting for when it's "important".

[ma_ref]

I should've been more specific...I always count the number players on the court during a game at any level I officiate. I was referring to counting the number of players on each team, prior to the start of the game, to verify that they match the number of players in the scorebook. Again, I always do this in high school, but rarely for rec ball.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by ma_ref

I was referring to counting the number of players on each team, prior to the start of the game, to verify that they match the number of players in the scorebook. Again, I always do this in high school, but rarely for rec ball.

What if a player is a little late getting there? Or a player is in the dressing room having a dump? Does your plan go down the dumper then too?

Let the scorer do his job.

[ma_ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

What if a player is a little late getting there? Or a player is in the dressing room having a dump? Does your plan go down the dumper then too?

Let the scorer do his job.

"Let the scorer do his job" By this, do you mean do their job by adding the player to the book when they (the player) arrive? If so, this is a T. A coach should always be aware of the team he his putting forth that day. If he knows a kid is gonna be late, then it's the coach's repsonsibility to make sure that player is listed properly in the book prior to the start of the game, even though they're not there yet.

There is no penalty for having a player listed in the book who does not play, nor does that player even have to be present that day. But adding a player to the book, who is not listed, comes at the expense of a T.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by ma_ref

If he knows a kid is gonna be late, then it's the coach's repsonsibility to make sure that player is listed properly in the book prior to the start of the game, even though they're not there yet.

That was my point. If you're counting the players, then how can you account for any players that are late, in the dressing room, etc.?

[Jurassic Referee]

=ma_ref
It was during a kids rec league game, we had a T for a player not being listed in the official book. Turns out that the team had 11 players on the bench, but only 10 listed. I don't want to speak for everyone, but I think it's safe to say that most people (again, not everyone), don't count the number of players for rec league ball. I always do for high school, but not youth league stuff. Anyway, I tell the coach we're going to have a T on his team for a player not listed. He says to me, "But aren't you supposed to verify the number of players prior to the start?" I told him "Yes coach I am...but as the head coach you're the one still ultimately responsible for getting all of your players listed in the book." Fortunately he agreed and left it at that. Shame on me for not counting the players, but we still ended up giving the T, as should have been done here with the 6 players on the court.

You're supposed to verify the number of players on each team prior to the start?

I didn't know that. Where can I find that in the rules?

[ma_ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

You're supposed to verify the number of players on each team prior to the start?

I didn't know that. Where can I find that in the rules?

Don't have my rule book in front of me to cite a rule, but doesn't everybody count the number of players prior to start and verify that the teams have at least that number of players in the book? I always assumed that was one of our pre-game responsibilities by rule. It helps to avoid, but doesn't totally prevent, the situation I got into where we had an administrative T for not having a player listed...

[loners4me]

I do? What am I missing here?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by ma_ref

Don't have my rule book in front of me to cite a rule, but doesn't everybody count the number of players prior to start and verify that the teams have at least that number of players in the book? I always assumed that was one of our pre-game responsibilities by rule. It helps to avoid, but doesn't totally prevent, the situation I got into where we had an administrative T for not having a player listed...

I never counted the players pre-game in my life. It's the team's job to supply a correct roster and starters. It's the scorer's job to enter the team rosters and starting lineups as given into the book. It's the officials job to react if either the team or the scorer fails to do their jobs properly.

If somebody screws up pre-game, it ain't the officials' fault. It's also nonsense imo to place any blame at all for a pre-game screw-up on the officials.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

I never counted the players pre-game in my life. It's the team's job to supply a correct roster and starters. It's the scorer's job to enter the team rosters and starting lineups as given into the book. It's the officials job to react if either the team or the scorer fails to do their jobs properly.

If somebody screws up pre-game, it ain't the officials' fault. It's also nonsense imo to place any blame at all for a pre-game screw-up on the officials.

At least here, it's SOP. Call it preventive officiating. And, while it can't repvent all problems, it can prevent some. :shrug:

[Chess Ref]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

At least here, it's SOP. Call it preventive officiating. And, while it can't repvent all problems, it can prevent some. :shrug:

Same here. Never have prevented a problem though. The most common thing is more numbers in book then players.

Also a unwritten rule is that it's the officials fault if there is a book problem.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

I never counted the players pre-game in my life. It's the team's job to supply a correct roster and starters. It's the scorer's job to enter the team rosters and starting lineups as given into the book. It's the officials job to react if either the team or the scorer fails to do their jobs properly.

If somebody screws up pre-game, it ain't the officials' fault. It's also nonsense imo to place any blame at all for a pre-game screw-up on the officials.

Who's placing blame? Why does counting the players prior to the 10 minute mark imply the officials have assumed any blame?

[mick]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

I never counted the players pre-game in my life. It's the team's job to supply a correct roster and starters. It's the scorer's job to enter the team rosters and starting lineups as given into the book. It's the officials job to react if either the team or the scorer fails to do their jobs properly.

If somebody screws up pre-game, it ain't the officials' fault. It's also nonsense imo to place any blame at all for a pre-game screw-up on the officials.

I bet you do, or did..

Officials Manual : Pre-game duties

2-whistle Referee duty 9 Verify number of team members and starters.
3-whistle U1 and U2 duty 5. Home and visitor Verification.