Four corners feeder style

[fullor30]

No rule reference here as there is none.

Most travel/feeder programs have a man to man rule.

A coach I've known for a number of years poised this question to me last night. Their opponent spread the floor ala Dean Smith four corners, with their speedy point guard driving one on one every play. Coach said his kids were playing their man but off them 8-10 feet since they were literally in the far corners. Opposing coach kept yelling "zone". Officials eventually made defense play off them 6 feet.

I'm in a quandry as to what I would have done. I'd probaby side with defensive coach as that's not what the rule is intended to accomplish.

As always here, you'd probably have to see it to make a judgement.

[grunewar]

Originally Posted by fullor30

Their opponent spread the floor ala Dean Smith four corners, with their speedy point guard driving one on one every play.

Gee, I'm sure the other players must have really had fun "running the offense" and being part of the "team".

Our rec leagues have specific prohibitions on running the "four corners" to prevent such an event.

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by grunewar

Gee, I'm sure the other players must have really had fun "running the offense" and being part of the "team".

Our rec leagues have specific prohibitions on running the "four corners" to prevent such an event.

The more I think about this, I'd tell offensive coach I'm not calling a zone.

[lukealex]

IMO, the offensive coach is trying to gain an advantage by stretching (literally) a rule. Unless one of the players in the corner by halfcourt can launch and consistently make a 40 footer, I would not expect any defensive player out past the 3 point line to play defense.

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by lukealex

IMO, the offensive coach is trying to gain an advantage by stretching (literally) a rule. Unless one of the players in the corner by halfcourt can launch and consistently make a 40 footer, I would not expect any defensive player out past the 3 point line to play defense.

The intent of the rule is to eliminate double teams promoting ballhandling and passing skills. Wish I did that game.

[A Pennsylvania Coach]

After coaching for 11 years, I may have some insight on this one, that others of you who have played or coached quite a bit may share.

Man-to-man doesn't mean that each defender follows their assigned offensive player around the court. Depending on the location of the player with the ball and the location of the player being guarded, a defender might be as far as 25-28 feet away from the player being guarded.

The basic man-to-man that I've always taught uses a ball/deny/help system on the perimeter. Player whose man has the ball is in "ball", and specific rules apply. Player whose man is one pass off the ball is in "deny" and other rules apply. Last, a player whose man is more than one pass off the ball is in "help". When in help, with the ball above the foul line (like OPs example), that defender shall have one foot in the lane, opened up to the man with the ball and his man so he can see both. This may require him to be several steps out of the line of the ball (line connecting the man with the ball to the man he is guarding). When the ball goes below the foul line, a "help" defender needs to go all the way to the helpline, which is an imaginary line bisecting the court lengthwise under both hoops.

So a help defender of the first variety could be about 18-22 feet away from the player being guarded, and up to 25-28 in the second instance, while still playing man-to-man.

If the protesting coach wants to determine or demonstrate if the defense is playing a zone, he should have a player or players off the ball cut through from one side to the other. If one defender shifts due to the cut, that's a man-to-man defense. If more than one defender shifts due to the cut, that's a zone.

[BayStateRef]

I suggest that the league clean up its rules. In addition to the "no zone" rule, it needs to add "no isolation play." No player at this level should be "forced" to go one-on-one without any chance of help defense. The idea should be to teach defense, not to see who can score the most points.

Second, the league needs to establish clearer "rules." It also needs to provide clear, unambiguous language, that the official, and only the official, can make these rulings -- as they can for any other judgment call. I work one league that provides the following rules:

USE OF ZONES AT 4th and 5th GRADE LEVEL:

Rationale of the rule: The following rule is intended to discourage teams from using zones at the 4th and 5th grade level. The general intent of the rule is to avoid teams from 'packing it in' and forcing teams to beat a zone by superior outside shooting, quick passing, or 'filling the gaps'. The general feeling is that players at this level do not have the offensive skills to 'break' a zone successfully, thus the zone creates an unfair advantage to the team playing a zone defense. Further, since playing a zone creates a defensive advantage, allowing it would discourage teams from using man-to-man defense, and players would not learn this very important fundamental skill.

Implementing such a rule needs to address zone presses during the allowed 'pressing' period, traps, and help defense. The 'flip' side of no zones is to discourage teams on the offensive side from isolating one strong player on one side of the court and going 'one on one' for the entire game or at least for an extended number of times.

The rule:
I. No zones are allowed in the 4th and 5th grade level.
II. In the frontcourt, between the 3 point arc and the timeline, 'help' defense is not allowed. This means there is no trapping or double teaming.
III. In the area between the 3 point arc and the 'paint', help defense is allowed. This means that a double team or a 'trap' would be allowed in this area.
IV. Inside the paint there is no restriction. The feeling here is that inside the paint there is so much traffic that it is too difficult for a referee to manage the type of defense being played.
V. In the last 2 minutes of the first half, and 4 minutes of the second half, teams may press full court, however this press must remain in a man to man defense (no zone). In short, they must be guarding their player, and not an area.
VI. The officials at the game site have the final responsibility for interpreting the violation. If there is no advantage being gained then the official in all likelihood may not call the violation. If any coach has an issue with the rule it is to be addressed with their league coordinator - NOT the referee or the league commissioner.
VII. The first violation of the rule will be a warning. .Subsequent violations will incur a direct technical foul on the coach.

[jdw3018]

Pennsylvania Coach has it right - if the league doesn't specifically define man-to-man defense (ie, players have to be "so" close to the player they are guarding, no help, etc), then there should be no reason that the other players can't help. Help defense is a basic tenet of man-to-man defense, and these rules are written for the purpose of teaching those basics.

In addition, many man-to-man teams even at the high school level don't extend that defense beyond the 3-point arc. Why force 5th graders to cover one-on-one at half court?

[Stat-Man]

Our Public Middle School league has rules that require:
* Man to man defense
* no trapping or double teaming except in the paint/key
* Full court pressing is allowed until a 15 point lead.
* No "clear out" offenses. (Which, if i remeber the handout correctly, is interpreted is having one player isolated 1 on 1 on one side of the court)

My former HS JV Coach now coaches at the middle school. Whenever we play him, he pushes the limits of the man to man rule and has his players play what looks like a 2-3 zone inside the 3 point line. It seems to be a saggy man to man, but if a team set up in 4 corners, the defensive player under the basket would have no one to guard.

I told my friend that his wife should have their twins when we played this school, because I would set up all 5 players outside the 3 point line, so that he wouldn't be able to have a defender camped out in the paint. I'd also keep the ball at half court once I had a lead to make him play tighter man to man.

Maybe it's a good thing I'm not a coach.

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by A Pennsylvania Coach

After coaching for 11 years, I may have some insight on this one, that others of you who have played or coached quite a bit may share.

Man-to-man doesn't mean that each defender follows their assigned offensive player around the court. Depending on the location of the player with the ball and the location of the player being guarded, a defender might be as far as 25-28 feet away from the player being guarded.

The basic man-to-man that I've always taught uses a ball/deny/help system on the perimeter. Player whose man has the ball is in "ball", and specific rules apply. Player whose man is one pass off the ball is in "deny" and other rules apply. Last, a player whose man is more than one pass off the ball is in "help". When in help, with the ball above the foul line (like OPs example), that defender shall have one foot in the lane, opened up to the man with the ball and his man so he can see both. This may require him to be several steps out of the line of the ball (line connecting the man with the ball to the man he is guarding). When the ball goes below the foul line, a "help" defender needs to go all the way to the helpline, which is an imaginary line bisecting the court lengthwise under both hoops.

So a help defender of the first variety could be about 18-22 feet away from the player being guarded, and up to 25-28 in the second instance, while still playing man-to-man.

If the protesting coach wants to determine or demonstrate if the defense is playing a zone, he should have a player or players off the ball cut through from one side to the other. If one defender shifts due to the cut, that's a man-to-man defense. If more than one defender shifts due to the cut, that's a zone.

Precisely.........I'm sending aforementioned coach your explanation.

[BillyMac]

The very first year that my daughter played basketball, after taking dance lessons for several years, she played on a town recreation team, that insisted on man to man defense, at all times. My daughter had good basketball instincts from the get go, so when her teammates would get beat, she would drop off her man to help on defense. The officials kept telling her that this wasn't allowed. She kept on questionning me about why she couldn't help her teammates. This league also, for some unknown reason, didn't shoot foul shots. If you were fouled in the act of shooting, your team got the ball back. My daughter, as I said earlier, had some potential, she would often get offensive rebounds, and quickly shoot the ball and score, so her opponents would simply foul her when she rebounded, or shot, the ball. Again, as an official, I got a lot of questions from her.

The next year, at my suggestion, she tried out, and made, the town travel team. I'm not a big fan of travel teams, especially when there are same age school teams available, but thank God, she made the travel team, because if she didn't, she would probably go back to dancing, which for you with nondancers in your family, is very expensive, and boring to a "basketball Dad" like myself.

[BillyMac]

From A Pennsylvania Coach: "If the protesting coach wants to determine or demonstrate if the defense is playing a zone, he should have a player or players off the ball cut through from one side to the other. If one defender shifts due to the cut, that's a man-to-man defense. If more than one defender shifts due to the cut, that's a zone."

When I was coaching middle school, that's the first play we ran to find out what kind of defense we were facing.

[Coltdoggs]

My rec league has adopted no zone for 3rd and 4th grade league and has an isolation rule in place as well. In addition, they do not allow high screens above the top of the 3 point line extended.

5th/6th can play any D and there is also an isolation rule...no high pick rule though

The iso, high picks and zone Ds are lumped as "violations" that get 2 warnings then on the third infraction and on, we issue Team techs (2 FTs and ball)

The iso can be called in one or two players work together in half court sets and do not involve other team members. It can also be called if one player, on a third possession in a row in a half court set is the shooter without involving other team members.

The exception to this is when the isolating player is on a fastbreak...we let those go.

[Forksref]

As a coach at the JHS, HS and college levels for over 15 years, I understand the levels.

First of all, any coach worth anything will teach "help" defense within the man defense. So, don't penalize a team for learning good help defense at the JHS level. Hopefully, league organizers will understand this.

Secondly, when I started out at the JHS level, we were allowed to teach and coach a zone defense. I believe that the kids deserve to learn to work offensively against a zone. This requires good ball movement, ball fakes, driving and penetrating the zone and, of course, good shooting. There are those who will say that you need to concentrate on teaching man to man defense. Well, my experience tells me that I can teach good man defense in 2 weeks but I can't teach good shooting, ball movement and all the other components of good zone offense in 2 weeks. Defense is a whole lot easier to teach than offensive skills.

As a side note, I think I have seen more illegal screens in JHS ball this year than ever before. The main reason for this is coaches not teaching the players to USE the screen. The player with the ball dribbles so far from the screener that you could drive a truck through the space. The poor kid setting the screen has to move 5 feet laterally in order to get close to the defender on the ball. This is just poor coaching and the kids get penalized. The player for whom the screen is being set must take their defender into the stationary screener. I always told my players to brush shoulders with the screener. This rarely happens.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Forksref

As a coach at the JHS, HS and college levels for over 15 years, I understand the levels. The player for whom the screen is being set must take their defender into the stationary screener. I always told my players to brush shoulders with the screener. This rarely happens.

Coach: Good coaching, When I was coaching I would tell my players the same thing, "brush shoulders". If more players would listen to coaches like you, we officials would probably have to call fewer illegal contact moving screens. Very often the screener will move, and make contact, illegally, because the player using the screen didn't come close enough to the screener.