Intentional Lane Violations --- Good coaching?

[ma_ref]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

you're inaction forces the fouling team to escalate their contact to attempt to draw the call.

Originally Posted by RichMSN

I do not want players wondering "How much do I have to whack him to get a whistle?"

My points exactly.

Originally Posted by Texas Aggie

That's NOT the reason to call it (and no, they wouldn't be right). The reason to call it is because that's what the rules are. Don't get into this idiotic mindset where we have any control over whether players are injured. We don't. In this situation, the behavior that might lead to injury is already going on, so a whistle isn't going to heal an injury. Further, calling it isn't going to prevent it in the future if that's the strategy their coach feels is in their best interest, so later, we are back to the same issue, called or uncalled. The proper thing to do is to call it because the rules say to call it, not because we care about what anyone thinks.

I agree that's not the reason to call it. You never call a foul because you *expect* an injury to occur, nor are we directly responsible for the actions of the players on the court. My point was that once this person decided not to call it, they have, in fact, potentially put a team in harms way and it was totally avoidable. Imagine what the players on the team trying to foul are thinking: "Hmmm...I just tried to foul the kid, but the ref didn't call anything...maybe I didn't get him enough?" So next time they try to foul again, only this time they do it harder because it didn't get the ref's attention the 1st time. I'm no lawyer, but negligence is not something I'm willing to spend a small fortune to defend myself against. And in today's litigious society, don't think this wouldn't happen.

True, that the "whistle isn't going to heal an injury", but it could very well prevent one. And by consciously ignoring an intentional foul situation, this particular official is creating an atmosphere where they're allowing the potential for very bad things to happen.

[Rizzo21]

Originally Posted by ma_ref

My points exactly.


I agree that's not the reason to call it. You never call a foul because you *expect* an injury to occur, nor are we directly responsible for the actions of the players on the court. My point was that once this person decided not to call it, they have, in fact, potentially put a team in harms way and it was totally avoidable. Imagine what the players on the team trying to foul are thinking: "Hmmm...I just tried to foul the kid, but the ref didn't call anything...maybe I didn't get him enough?" So next time they try to foul again, only this time they do it harder because it didn't get the ref's attention the 1st time. I'm no lawyer, but negligence is not something I'm willing to spend a small fortune to defend myself against. And in today's litigious society, don't think this wouldn't happen.

True, that the "whistle isn't going to heal an injury", but it could very well prevent one. And by consciously ignoring an intentional foul situation, this particular official is creating an atmosphere where they're allowing the potential for very bad things to happen.

Had this scenario earlier this year when Team A was up by about 5 with less than a minute to go and did a VERY good job of "keep away" with their passes. Team B could not catch any of the players for their "foul". Finally A1 caught the ball and just stood there but B1 came in and shoved him into the stands with 1.4 seconds left. Bad scene that luckily didn't escalate (fortunately, A1 was very calm and not hurt). The call was Flagrant Personal on B1 by one of my partners. He's out for the remaining 1.4 seconds and the next game as well. Post-game we lamented the fact that we couldn't get a touch foul earlier but there was NOTHING to get. Things just happen.

[A Pennsylvania Coach]

Originally Posted by sj

I had one I'd never run across as well the other night. Team A is down by 4 with 4 seconds left and has the ball OB at the far end after a made free throw. Coach A calls their last time out. Coming out A inbounds it, comes up the court, and a kid hits a three with right at 1 second left. I'm trail and as the ball goes in Coach A turns at me and starts screaming. I knew he had no timeouts so I wasn't going to give him one but he was so adamant that I had to turn and look at him wondering what he is going nuts over. He was screaming at me to call a foul. He had told his kids that if they make a shot to foul immediately. Obviously this would have been prior to the ball being taken OB for a throw in. His kids were pushing every B kid in sight. I called nothing and the horn blew and we left. But he screamed at us as we went. The best case for this numskull would have been an intentional foul, go to the other end, shoot 2 and then give B the ball....all with under a second left. I passed.

Why'd A use their last timeout before the 3? He should've saved it for after the 3 went in.

[sj]

Originally Posted by A Pennsylvania Coach

Why'd A use their last timeout before the 3? He should've saved it for after the 3 went in.

Your guess is as good as mine but maybe he had this in mind. That being the idea of fouling during the dead ball as his only shot at winning and wanted to set it up. I just had never run across it before.

[sj]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

Marist at Fairfield last night, Men's. Double OT, Fairfield shooting 2nd of 2 shots with 0.9 left, up by 1.

Marist calls TO preceding the 2nd FT. They come out of the TO, and have a player walk into the lane as the Fairfield shooter attempts his FT (which he misses on purpose). Lane violation occurs.

Same thing happens again. And again.

Finally, on the 4th attempt, the Fairfield player accidently made the free throw. Marist then had an opportunity to throw the ball up court and score to tie or win the game.

So, is there anything a ref can do to stop this seemingly unsportsmenlike behavior?

I don't think there is a darn thing... but I'll leave it to the experts. Has anyone seen this done before???

Here's another one a ref related to me about pulling one at the end of the game.

Team B is down by one with 4 seconds left. B's arrow. B has fouled and A1 is shooting a 1 and 1. B calls a time out and sets it up..... When B comes out of their huddle, B1 goes to the second lane space hoping A2 won't notice and will go to the first spot...which he does. The administrating official doesn't know it and bounces the ball to A1. B1 then draws the attention of the official by saying that "that guy shouldn't be there." Official calls the double violation and gives B the ball based on the arrow. They throw it in and go down and score and win and the game is over.

Just as a side note... B1 is today a Division 1 official.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by sj

Here's another one a ref related to me about pulling one at the end of the game.

Team B is down by one with 4 seconds left. B's arrow. B has fouled and A1 is shooting a 1 and 1. B calls a time out and sets it up..... When B comes out of their huddle, B1 goes to the second lane space hoping A2 won't notice and will go to the first spot...which he does. The administrating official doesn't know it and bounces the ball to A1. B1 then draws the attention of the official by saying that "that guy shouldn't be there." Official calls the double violation and gives B the ball based on the arrow. They throw it in and go down and score and win and the game is over.

Just as a side note... B1 is today a Division 1 official.

Must be Jon Diebler. He committed the violation and then called it. It was one of his dual role games.