Does it have to be a foul?

[just another ref]

I had a pivotal call in the championship game of our 11-12 girls rec league last night. A1 trying to turn the corner on B1, right at the sideline. I was lead, play was right in front of me. B1, as far as I was concerned had LGP, and when A1 ran out of room on the sideline, she forced the issue. There was a pretty good collision, both players went down, and ball went out of bounds. I called out of bounds and gave the ball to B. Naturally everybody on the A side reeallllly wanted a blocking foul, but, oh, well. My only reason for rethinking the play, was whether this situation demands a foul call, one way or the other. I had PC or nothing, and chose nothing. But, if this play happens in the middle of the floor and the ball stays in play, I probably call the PC. My rationalization, after the fact, (to myself) was that since B gained control due to the violation, B1 was not put at a disadvantage by the contact, but this may be thin. Also, if the ball had gone out of bounds off B1, this would have forced the issue. Thoughts on this play?

[BoomerSooner]

My position on this is that if you would have called it in the middle of the floor it should be called on the sideline, baseline, etc. Sure B gets the ball either way, but what if this was 2 minutes into the game? Not calling the PC avoids adding a team foul to A and could eventually deny B a FT opp later. Also A1 also avoids a personal foul. If she is one of A's best players and has 4, not giving her #5 is an advantage to A. I'm not going to use the line about rewarding the defense, because I don't feel like I'm out there to reward anybody, but rather to enforce the rules which say this is a PC foul.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by just another ref

There was a pretty good collision, both players went down, and ball went out of bounds.

PC Foul.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

PC Foul.

Correct. 10-6-7 addresses this issue. If a dribbler tries to dribble betwen an opponent and a boundary line, where there is no reasonable chance for the dribbler to go through without contact, the illegal contact should, most likely, be called on the dribbler.

If it ever exsited, the mythical "force out" dissappeared way before my time, maybe even before the Jurassic Period, maybe all the way back to the Triassic Period, which means that we may not be able to get some insight into this from Jurassic Referee.

Is there a Triassic Referee out there?

[Kelvin green]

I agree with Boomer... if it would be PC in the middle of the floor why isnt it PC on the sideline?

I have seem too many train wrecks this year not called..... The good collisions have to be called.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

If it ever existed, the mythical "force out" disappeared way before my time, maybe even before the Jurassic Period, maybe all the way back to the Triassic Period, which means that we may not be able to get some insight into this from Jurassic Referee.

Afaik, the only rule set to ever have a force-out rule was the NBA. And they got rid of that rule back in the 60's iirc. I don't believe that the NFHS and NCAA rules have ever had anything like it.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Afaik, the only rule set to ever have a force-out rule was the NBA. And they got rid of that rule back in the 60's iirc. I don't believe that the NFHS and NCAA rules have ever had anything like it.

Was that the 60's of the Triassic, Jurassic, or Cretaceous Period, or was it even in the Mesozoic Era? Maybe it was in the 60's of the Cenozoic Era, back in the days of the dinosaur called Georgium Mikanous?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Kelvin green

I agree with Boomer... if it would be PC in the middle of the floor why isnt it PC on the sideline?

I have seem too many train wrecks this year not called..... The good collisions have to be called.

Change the scenario a bit. A1 loses control. A2 and B2 sprint after the lose ball and meet at a perfect 45 degree angle and knock each other unconscious, after which the ball goes out of bounds. The point being that severity of contact is not necessarily what dictates a foul. So, back to the OP. If I had said that A1 realized she had nowhere to go, but, in spite of her best attempt, was unable to change direction in time and made slight contact with B1's torso before losing her dribble out of bounds, would that change the verdict? I look at the definition of a personal foul:
......contact which hinders an opponent from.....normal defensive maneuvers.
Contact was made a split second before the ball went out of bounds. The defender was not hindered from anything. That being said, I believe that a foul call in this case would be better received than a no call, even by those on the wrong end of the call.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by just another ref

as far as I was concerned had LGP, and when A1 ran out of room on the sideline, she forced the issue. There was a pretty good collision, both players went down, and ball went out of bounds.

Player control foul. Good collision, both players went down, call something.

Now if A1 had tried to slide around B1 and there was LGP and slight contact and A1 ended up OOB, then call the OOB.

[just another ref]

Watching Duke/WF and saw several collisions where one or both hit the floor with no whistle of any kind. If it's good enough for them......

[Kelvin green]

There is a difference between high school age kids and Duke/WF...Size, speed, agility etc.

I disagree that if it is good for them then we should ignore it at high school level

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Kelvin green

There is a difference between high school age kids and Duke/WF...Size, speed, agility etc.

I disagree that if it is good for them then we should ignore it at high school level

Iow, we should completely ignore NFHS rule 4-27-2?--"Contact which occurs unintentionally in an effort by an opponent to reach a loose ball, or contact which may result when opponents are in equally favorable positions to perform normal defensive or offensive movements, should not be considered illegal, even though the contact may be severe."

That concept has been in place forever. Illegal contact is a foul; incidental contact isn't a foul;, even if the incidental contact is a train-wreck. Just because 2 players went down does not mean that a call must be made.

Some clinicians teach that you should always have a call IF the train-wreck includes a dribbler. Personally, I don't agree with the "always" part of that either.

I don't think that you and Rich are really saying that you have to have a call on all train-wrecks, but on the very small chance that you are, I disagree.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Iow, we should completely ignore NFHS rule 4-27-2?--"Contact which occurs unintentionally in an effort by an opponent to reach a loose ball, or contact which may result when opponents are in equally favorable positions to perform normal defensive or offensive movements, should not be considered illegal, even though the contact may be severe."

That concept has been in place forever. Illegal contact is a foul; incidental contact isn't a foul;, even if the incidental contact is a train-wreck. Just because 2 players went down does not mean that a call must be made.

Some clinicians teach that you should always have a call IF the train-wreck includes a dribbler. Personally, I don't agree with the "always" part of that either.

I don't think that you and Rich are really saying that you have to have a call on all train-wrecks, but on the very small chance that you are, I disagree.

Not disagreeing with your main point, but...

Can you give me a scenario where there is a train wreck, involving the dribbler, where the contact is incidental? It's late and I'm not coming up with one.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

Not disagreeing with your main point, but...

Can you give me a scenario where there is a train wreck, involving the dribbler, where the contact is incidental? It's late and I'm not coming up with one.

Dribbler is pinned on the sideline but realizes it too late. Tries to stop/reverse direction, but it is too late. Crashes into the defender a split second before the ball goes out of bounds. Kinda like........the OP.