time put back on the clock??

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

1) Reference?

2) "The timer and scorer and other official(s) can be used by the referee to gain definite information". So, if the scorer says they definitely saw 0.2 on the clock at the time of the whistle, then I have definite information there was 0.2 left, no matter how quickly or slowly they hit the button.

1) What part of rule 5-6-2EXCEPTION3 didn't you comprehend the first 113 times that I posted it?

2) Can you point out to me where I can find the timing MISTAKE in that sequence? You can adjust the time for a timing MISTAKE using definite knowledge. That's rule 5-10. You can't adjust the clock per the oft-cited rule above if the timer simply stops the clock normally per rule 5-8-1(a). There's 2 different rules covering 2 different situations. You're trying to apply a rule that isn't applicable.

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

1) What part of rule 5-6-2EXCEPTION3 didn't you comprehend the first 113 times that I posted it?

2) Can you point out to me where I can find the timing MISTAKE in that sequence? You can adjust the time for a timing MISTAKE using definite knowledge. That's rule 5-10. You can't adjust the clock per the oft-cited rule above if the timer simply stops the clock normally per rule 5-8-1(a). There's 2 different rules covering 2 different situations. You're trying to apply a rule that isn't applicable.

OK..lets try it this way. Does it say anywhere that I can't add time if the official concludes that there was a mistake?

If it doesn't then the "R" in this play is rule supported if he concluded the timer made a mistake by not stopping the time fast enough. Since there is nothing in the book that says the timer has so much time to stop the clock, such as lag time, then its simply left up to the official to decide if it was a timing error or not.

You & I on this play conclude that its not a timing error. The "R" on this play did therefore the rules support him/her adding time.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

OK..lets try it this way. Does it say anywhere that I can't add time if the official concludes that there was a mistake?

Nope. If there was a mistake, you can put time back on.

See case book play 5.6.2SitG. though. That covers the play we're discussing.....a foul in the act of shooting followed by the end of a period while the ball is in flight. Note the time lag between the foul occurring and the end of the period(the act of shooting ends when the ball left the shooter's hands...the foul occurred before the ball left the shooter's hands). Note that NO time is put back on the clock in that case play. That's because the timer did NOT make a mistake in stopping the clock.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

1) What part of rule 5-6-2EXCEPTION3 didn't you comprehend the first 113 times that I posted it?

The part that has to do with correcting the mistake. This section deals with "if you know the foul happened before the horn, you still shoot FT's even though the horn went off". Especially if we don't know how much time to put back on the clock. Iow, we can't just wave off FT's because the horn went off and we are not putting time back on.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

2) Can you point out to me where I can find the timing MISTAKE in that sequence?

The part where there is definite information the whistle blew at 0.2, but the clock didn't stop at 0.2.

If the official looked up at the clock and saw 6.0 seconds when they blow the whistle, and the clock stops at (a)6.0, (b)5.9, (c)5.1, or (d)2.1, what time does the official tell the timer to put on the clock? Of course, we put 6.0 in every case now, because we have definite knowledge. There is no more lag time. And, the case play also tells us the timer can be used for obtaining the definite knowledge.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

You can adjust the time for a timing MISTAKE using definite knowledge.

Cool, we agree.

[Camron Rust]

The timer is to stop the clock when the whistle blows. If the timer had time to look at the console and see 0.2, the timer also had time to flip the switch. If, for some reason, the timer's finger slippped or the timer hesitated, that is a mistake. Time should be put back on the clock. When ANY official (including the timer) sees time on the clock (console included) after the whistle, that IS the time that gets restored. There is no lag time...the clock is supposed to stop at the same time as the whistle.

Imagine if the time, instead of 0.2, were 0.3, 0.5, 0.8 or even 1.5. Where is the line drawn? If the clock stops at anything less than any of the officiating crew sees on/after the whistle, it is a mistake.

[Back In The Saddle]

There does seem to be some ambiguity between 5-6-2 Ex. 3 and 5-10. The exception still seems to allow for lag time, a concept that was supposedly removed a couple of years ago. While 5-10-1 allows the official to put back on the exact time that was observed and 5-8-1 indicates that the clock is to stop when the official signals to stop the clock.

To my feeble mind, I believe the only way to bring order to these seemingly conflicting rules is by prioritizing. And the priority, to my way of thinking, is that if we have definite knowledge of the time that was on the clock when the signal was given, that time should be placed back on the clock. If the exact time is not known, and the timer was unable to stop the clock before time expired, then we live with the time expiring.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

There does seem to be some ambiguity between 5-6-2 Ex. 3 and 5-10. The exception still seems to allow for lag time, a concept that was supposedly removed a couple of years ago. While 5-10-1 allows the official to put back on the exact time that was observed and 5-8-1 indicates that the clock is to stop when the official signals to stop the clock.

The rules don't conflict. They're different rules for different situations.

Rule 5-10-1 is only used when there is a timer's mistake.....i.e the timer stopped the clock wrongly.

Rule 5-6-2EXCEPTION covers a very specific situation only(the end of a period) and is only applicable if the timer hasn't made a mistake in stopping the clock. Case book pay 5.6.2SitG confirms that.

Apples and oranges...and different rules for different situations.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

The rules don't conflict. They're different rules for different situations.

Rule 5-10-1 is only used when there is a timer's mistake.....i.e the timer stopped the clock wrongly.

Rule 5-6-2EXCEPTION covers a very specific situation only(the end of a period) and is only applicable if the timer hasn't made a mistake in stopping the clock. Case book pay 5.6.2SitG confirms that.

Apples and oranges...and different rules for different situations.

And wrongly is anytime it stops at a point after a time observed once the whistle has blown.

If the whistle blows and then the horn blows so quickly after that noone sees a time or there is no difference in the time seen, that is the point of 5-6-2Ex.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

And wrongly is anytime it stops at a point after a time observed once the whistle has blown.

If the whistle blows and then the horn blows so quickly after that noone sees a time or there is no difference in the time seen, that is the point of 5-6-2Ex.

Disagree completely. That is NOT what R5-6-2EXCEPTION3 says. Case book play 5.6.2SitG completely disagrees with you also. If you were right, the difference from the time when the whistle was blown for the foul to the end of the period would be put back on the clock in both the EXCEPTION and the case play. It isn't!