time put back on the clock??

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I would have let it go (that is, end the game with the FTs) and not put any time back on the clock. There was no obvious timing error.

I would have to agree with Bob on this one. However if the "R" is making a big enough deal about putting .2 back on then I'm saying by rule he can.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

I would have to agree with Bob on this one. However if the "R" is making a big enough deal about putting .2 back on then I'm saying by rule he can.

What rule?

Rainmaker gave the applicable rule-- rule 5-6-2EXCEPTION3. Bob Jenkins was correct. There was no timing error. The timer simply couldn't stop the clock before time expired. There's no rules basis that I'm aware of under NFHS rules that will allow you to put time back on the clock. There's no monitor to use--like NCAA rules.

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

What rule?

Rainmaker gave the applicable rule-- rule 5-6-2EXCEPTION3. Bob Jenkins was correct. There was no timing error. The timer simply couldn't stop the clock before time expired. There's no rules basis that I'm aware of under NFHS rules that will allow you to put time back on the clock. There's no monitor to use--like NCAA rules.

I agree that I wouldn't have done anything on this other then shoot the throws and leave. However I think the rule book would back up either situation.

5-6-2 Ex. 3 would back up calling it and leaving and Rule 5-10-1 in addition to applying Case play 5.10.1 Sit. D would back the ruling to add .2 back to the clock since it would be exact time observed by the timer which is also considered definitive knowledge.

In my game I'm calling it and leaving. In the OP's play the rule book would back the "R" up by putting up .2 and playing on.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

5-6-2 Ex. 3 would back up calling it and leaving and Rule 5-10-1 in addition to applying Case play 5.10.1 Sit. D would back the ruling to add .2 back to the clock since it would be exact time observed by the timer which is also considered definitive knowledge.

Rule 5-10-1 and case book play 5.10.1SitD refer to timing mistakes. This isn't a timing mistake. The timer stopped the clock properly; he simply couldn't get the clock stopped instantaneously with the official's whistle. Rule 5-6-2EXCEPTION 3 allows for situations that occur like that at the end of a period and it directs us not to put any time back on the clock.

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Rule 5-6-2EXCEPTION 3 allows for situations that occur like that at the end of a period and it directs us not to put any time back on the clock.

I don't read where it instructs us to NOT put any time back on the clock. Maybe I'm not looking in the right place. I agree with what you are saying but can also see where you could argue that you can add time back up.

Since the FED took out Lag time we are now able to put up the exact time observed on the clock after a whistle. I suppose you could argue what exactly is considered so close that you can't get it stopped.

In the past Lag time took care of this argument, now since we really don't have a number to use then this is where I can see that the book would back either ruling. If I blow my whistle and look up and see .2 on the clock then time runs out and I can put .2 up on the clock if I should chose to. With the Lag time rule I couldn't.

In the OP's play you had foul, whistle, then horn. I can see having a play where there is foul, horn then whistle. In this type of play then I certainly think there would be no argument that the foul happened so close to the expiration that the timer couldn't stop the clock.

I still agree that in this play the book would support either ruling especially since they definitely had a whistle before the horn and the timer observed exact time on the clock.

Again in my game I'm calling it. The OP' oster asked if they were wrong. IMO I say no since I think the rule book would support the ruling even though I wouldn't adjudicate the rule in the same manner.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

I don't read where it instructs us to NOT put any time back on the clock. Maybe I'm not looking in the right place.

Look in the place that says "The quarter or extra period ENDS when the free throw(s) and all related activity have been completed."

The rule that you're trying to use to put time back on is labeled "TIMING MISTAKES". The timer didn't make a mistake. The timer stopped the clock properly and by rule as soon as he heard the whistle. The rules allow for that slight lag if the horn sounds before the clock can be stopped. You're trying to apply a rule that isn't relevant.

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Look in the place that says "The quarter or extra period ENDS when the free throw(s) and all related activity have been completed."

The rule that you're trying to use to put time back on is labeled "TIMING MISTAKES". The timer didn't make a mistake. The timer stopped the clock properly and by rule as soon as he heard the whistle. The rules allow for that slight lag if the horn sounds before the clock can be stopped. You're trying to apply a rule that isn't relevant.

Obviously I see where it says it ends but it doesn't INSTRUCT us to not put time on. Lag time is gone which used to give us a number to work with to define lag which gave instruction on when to add or not. That is no longer in the book, if its not in the book then it is left upto us what we would consider lag or mistake.

Maybe the timer could've stopped it since the whistle was clearly before the horn and left time on the clock maybe he couldn't. Its left upto us to decide what is a timing mistake and what isn't. What you think is lag may be considered a timing error by the next guy. I'm with you that if this was my game I'm gone. However the "R" on this game might have thought it was a mistake. If he did then by rule he can add time.

There's nothing in the rule that says we can't add time back to the clock. The only question/judgment is left upto us whether we thought there was a timing mistake.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

The rules allow for that slight lag if the horn sounds before the clock can be stopped.

Reference?

Is it possible you're still considering the "lag time" principles? 5-10-1 allows for corrections with "definite information", and 5.10.1SitD says, "The timer and scorer and other official(s) can be used by the referee to gain definite information". So, if the scorer says they definitely saw 0.2 on the clock at the time of the whistle, then I have definite information there was 0.2 left, no matter how quickly or slowly they hit the button.

In this case, I can't see how you would put the time back on after the FT's. If I can find out before the FT's there's 0.2 left, I'm putting it on.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

There's no monitor to use--like NCAA rules.

FYI...the ncaa rule I posted is the the no monitor version.

FWIW... *IF* I thought the lag was there and *IF* I thought the timer had definite knowledge I would put the additional .2 on the clock. I would definitely not put it on after the FTs were attempted.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

FWIW... *IF* I thought the lag was there and *IF* I thought the timer had definite knowledge I would put the additional .2 on the clock.

The only time that you have rules justification to put time back on is if the timer actually screws up. If it's just the normal lag from a timer hearing the whistle and then flicking the switch, then by rule you can't adjust anything. What the timer sees when he starts to flick the switch means squat. You just go by what's on the clock after he flicked the switch, as long as he didn't delay switching it.

The rules will only allow us do something only if the timer is late stopping the clock.

Iirc we had a long thread on something like this just a week or two ago.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

The only time that you have rules justification to put time back on is if the timer actually screws up. If it's just the normal lag from a timer hearing the whistle and then flicking the switch, then by rule you can't adjust anything. What the timer sees when he starts to flick the switch means squat. You just go by what's on the clock after he flicked the switch, as long as he didn't delay switching it.

The rules will only allow us do something only if the timer is late stopping the clock.

Iirc we had a long thread on something like this just a week or two ago.

We always have a long thread on something like this.

The rules allow us to change the clock with definite knowledge. IMO *IF* the timer somehow has definite knowledge I'm going with that *IF* I believe the clock is wrong.