10 seconds on an FT

[crazy voyager]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Why would anyone not call it? Is there a reason you ignore it? Just don't like the rule? What? Do you ignroe 10 seconds in the BC?

I had it once. Kid took forever as I got to 10, he released it. Kinda woke me up. Next time, he's still dribbling when I get to 10. Tweet.

I've never called it, and then they only have 5 secs in fiba
And the reason I don't, the intent of the rule (as I interpet it) is not to make the players shoot faster. It is so that they can't stand for minutes and rest or just do something else than shooting on the line.
If I have a player who starts talking to team mates or something on the line, I start the count. Then they usually shoot in a hurry, if not, then I will call it...
But the rule is not intended to make sure everybody shoots under 5 secs, it's to make sure the game flow isn't disrupted (it is a tool for us to make the game flow). That's how I see it anyhow

[Ignats75]

I laughed out loud when I saw this. Approximately two weeks ago, I had a Girls JV game with a partner I have never seen before, nor can I find him on either association roster for our area.

.6 seconds left in a tie game. A1 at the line shooting 2. She misses the first. I am administering the free throws. I say "1 shot ladies" and back out of the key. By the time I get to the Volleyball sideline extended (the mark I use on the baseline) I hear a whistle...my partner has called 10 seconds!!!!! To make matters worse, the girl HAD started her shooting motion when he blew his whistle. Of course, she made the shot too. I thought the Vartsity officials were all going to have strokes. So instead of winning the game in regulation, the home team (A) lost in OT.

I ran into the visiting coach the next weekend when he was scouting at a game I was doing. He wanted to know where I found that guy.

[LDUB]

Originally Posted by Ignats75

I laughed out loud when I saw this. Approximately two weeks ago, I had a Girls JV game with a partner I have never seen before, nor can I find him on either association roster for our area.

.6 seconds left in a time game. A1 at the line shooting 2. She misses the first. I am administering the free throws. I say "1 shot ladies" and back out of the key. By the time I get to the Volleyball sideline extended (the mark I use on the baseline) I hear a whistle...my partner has called 10 seconds!!!!! To make matters worse, the girl HAD started her shooting motion when he blew his whistle. Of course, she made the shot too. I thought the Vartsity officials were all going to have strokes. So instead of winning the game in regulation, the home team (A) lost in OT.

I ran into the visiting coach the next weekend when he was scouting at a game I was doing. He wanted to know where I found that guy.

I insturct the shot clock opperator to set the clock to 10 seconds and to start it when the ball is bounced to the shooter. It saves a lot of problems in the long run, no partners calling the violation at 9.7 seconds anymore.

[Ignats75]

We dont have a shot clock for HS in Ohio. We did however almost have a shot referee

[jmaellis]

As a newer referee this particular (and other similar) issue perplexes me. Maybe I haven't "got it" yet and in time maybe it will all come to me, but the 10 second rule is, well ... a rule of the game. Why is it any less important than other violations such as traveling or being OOB. We don't allow a player to take just one (or two or three) extra step(s) before calling a travel. Did the player gain any real advantage by taking that extra step(s)? What about OOB? Did the player gain any real advantage because his foot was slightly OOB for one step while dribbling up the side line? No, of course not. But as referees we call every travel and/or OOB violation that we see, in other words, we enforce those rules. Why should the 10 second rule be any different?

From day one I've wondered why referees are taught that certain rules are unimportant and can be ignored, such as the 10 second free throw limitation. This rule is part of the mental aspect of the game.

[Ignats75]

Originally Posted by jmaellis

As a newer referee this particular (and other similar) issue perplexes me. Maybe I haven't "got it" yet and in time maybe it will all come to me, but the 10 second rule is, well ... a rule of the game. Why is it any less important than other violations such as traveling or being OOB. We don't allow a player to take just one (or two or three) extra step(s) before calling a travel. Did the player gain any real advantage by taking that extra step(s)? What about OOB? Did the player gain any real advantage because his foot was slightly OOB for one step while dribbling up the side line? No, of course not. But as referees we call every travel and/or OOB violation that we see, in other words, we enforce those rules. Why should the 10 second rule be any different?

From day one I've wondered why referees are taught that certain rules are unimportant and can be ignored, such as the 10 second free throw limitation. This rule is part of the mental aspect of the game.

You actually touched on it. Advantage/Disadvantage. Letting them play. yada yada. Around here, most officials will tell you that they will never call this violation. Why? If you asked them, you would probably get 100 different answers.

In my scenario that actually happened, the girl HAD started her shoooting motion, but the ball had not left her hand when the whistle sounded. I know that the calling official counted too fast. I don't take tenseconds to walk backwards along the baseline from the key to the sideline extended of the volleyball court. Its only about 3-4 steps. Is a player gaining an advantage by taking 11 seconds instead of 10 seconds?

Do you call 3 seoconds at exactly 3 seconds? Or is it 3.5 or 4 because you are looking at the whole situation and only start the count when you realize the player is camping. Do you warn a player ti get out of the key before you call three seconds. What if its a double low post and there are two players in the key, are you counting for both?

On a side note, here's another rule I refuse to enforce. We were told that ANY undergarments visible under the uniform must meet the color guidelines. Well, guess what, I am NOT going to tell some 15 - 16 year old girl that her sports bra is the wrong color and that the idiot AD that ordered the jerseys that allow these to become visible caused me to notice it. Before you say, thats not the Spirit of the rule, stop. I had a coach ask me to enforce just that violation. I told him I wasn't looking there.

[crazy voyager]

Originally Posted by jmaellis

But as referees we call every travel and/or OOB violation that we see, in other words, we enforce those rules. Why should the 10 second rule be any different?

From day one I've wondered why referees are taught that certain rules are unimportant and can be ignored, such as the 10 second free throw limitation. This rule is part of the mental aspect of the game.

That is not true, yes OOB we call becuse that is a fundamental principle. The play must be kept in bounds (just as shots can't be counted for three when players step on the line).
How ever, I don't call every travell I see, and no - imho- good referees, do. Becuse if that players lets the pivot foot go a tenth of a second to late when they are starting a dribble in their bc and nobody is even close. Nobody wants that call, becuse then you have to call it on the opponents as well!
There are certain violations and calls we should not make, becuse the players don't want them, coaches don't want them, we don't, spectators don't!
The 10 second rule (or 5 in fiba) is not there to force players to shoot quickly. It is there to give us the means to force play to go on if a player is deliberatly stalling at the line...
Alan Richardson once said that we don't want people running around calling everything they see. If we did we would have trained a pair of monkeys, we want referees, not monkeys!
Do you get my point? Game flow is more important than some rule written in a book half of the people on the court have never even thought about reading.
Be a ref, not a monkey

[jmaellis]

Originally Posted by crazy voyager

...
There are certain violations and calls we should not make, becuse the players don't want them, coaches don't want them, we don't, spectators don't!
....

I want to be doing this right, so where's the list of those violations (or fouls, or administrative rules) that we should ignore. It just seems to me that if NFHS didn't want it inforced it wouldn't be there.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by jmaellis

I want to be doing this right, so where's the list of those violations (or fouls, or administrative rules) that we should ignore. It just seems to me that if NFHS didn't want it inforced it wouldn't be there.

If you're one to call three seconds on a player for standing on the weak side of the lane w/ his toe on the lane line right at 3 seconds, then you absolutely should call 10 seconds on a FT shooter at exactly 10 seconds.

If you don't call that first violation, then you should be open to rationale on why not to call the FT violation.

[LDUB]

Originally Posted by Ignats75

Well, guess what, I am NOT going to tell some 15 - 16 year old girl that her sports bra is the wrong color and that the idiot AD that ordered the jerseys that allow these to become visible caused me to notice it.

Of course, it was the AD's fault that you were staring that their bras...

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by jmaellis

I want to be doing this right, so where's the list of those violations (or fouls, or administrative rules) that we should ignore. It just seems to me that if NFHS didn't want it inforced it wouldn't be there.

There is no "list". That is the "art" of officiating....first understanding the actualy rule, then learning how it is to be used....the intent and spirit of the rule. There are years of publications and posts all discussing the topic but not one concise list. In fact, the list changes from game to game as the game demands.

[Ignats75]

Originally Posted by LDUB

Of course, it was the AD's fault that you were staring that their bras...

I would've taken that as a joke except for your choice in emoticons. So let me be clear. I was NOT staring at their bras. but the way the jerseys were cut around the armholes, they were visible. Sheesh. Why do people always havbe to assume the worst.

[crazy voyager]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

There is no "list". That is the "art" of officiating....first understanding the actualy rule, then learning how it is to be used....the intent and spirit of the rule. There are years of publications and posts all discussing the topic but not one concise list. In fact, the list changes from game to game as the game demands.

Well he said it already
To quote another rule
47.3 When deciding on a personal contact or violation, the officials shall, in each instance, have regard to and weigh the following fundamental principles:
• The spirit and intent of the rules and the need to uphold the integrity of the game.
• Consistency in the application of the concept of 'advantage/disadvantage', whereby the officials should not seek to interrupt the flow of the game unnecessarily in order to penalise personal contact that is incidental and which does not give the player responsible an advantage nor place his opponent at a disadvantage.
• Consistency in the application of common sense to each game, bearing in mind the abilities of the players concerned and their attitude and conduct during the game.
• Consistency in the maintenance of a balance between game control and game flow, having a 'feeling' for what the participants are trying to do and calling what is right for the game.

But there is no list, only your sense of the game and your skill, and do only way to get better is to practice and work on it.
But you should not call the 3 in the key for a player who has his or her toe on the line, at least not without thinking first...
I am not saying you should never call a 5 sec FT violation, but it is one of the violations you should rarley call (think, do you ever see them? But if you sit and count in the stands I'm sure you will notice loads of players take an extra tenth of a second). It's all about game flow

[just another ref]

I have never called this, never seen it called. I agree that normally the count in this situation is "not aggressive." To me, this is all the more reason to make the call if you do get to 10. I consider this to be a generous amount of time.