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  #76 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 25, 2008, 03:18pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan_ref
Yeah, the Grand Clique Theorem. We all hate Nevada...except maybe the clintons.
Yeah, like it doesn't happen.

Nevada says something the Usual Suspects disagree, multiple pages of dog piling goes on.

The usual suspects say something, someone disagrees, the dog pile hits the poster disagreeing, posts get deleted and the thread dies or gets closed.


Nothing going on here, move along, nothing to see.
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  #77 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 25, 2008, 03:42pm
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  #78 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 26, 2008, 11:08am
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My Worst Call Last Season

My worst call of last season: Girls varsity. A few seconds to go in the first quarter. I'm the trail, responsible for the shot and the clock. A-1 attempts a three-pointer from my primary with no defender near her. Still no horn. I watch the flight of the ball. It clangs off the rim and bounces high above the rim. Still no horn. In a boys game, I would be watching for basket interference, but since it was a girls game, I decided to glance at the clock in case of a rebounding foul. Tenths of a second left. I turn back to the ball and basket to see the ball enter the basket at the buzzer. I count the three-pointer to end the quarter.

A few Team B players politely tell me the ball hit a supporting wire. I can also tell from the reaction of the crowd that it probably hit the supporting wire. I go to my partner who was the lead, to see if he can help me. Of course he can't, which I already knew, because his responsibility is to keep his eyes down, looking for rebounding fouls. But I ask him anyway, to show the Team B head coach, who is questioning my call, that I'm trying to get as much information as possible. My partner says that he didn't see it hit the supporting wire. I tell the Team B head coach that I can't change a call without definite knowledge, and I say "I'm sorry if I missed it". He says, "Sorry doesn't take away the three points" and appears very upset with me.

In the locker room at halftime, the junior varsity officials, who had stayed to watch the varsity game, say that the ball did hit the supporting wire. Going onto the court after halftime, the Team B head coach apologizes for losing his temper, which never even approached the need for a technical foul. I accept his apology, and explain to him that I missed the ball touching the supporting wire because I had glanced at the clock to check the time. Before the second half started, all the members of the table crew, from both teams told me that the ball had hit the supporting wire.

Lesson learned: As the trail, always watch the flight of the ball, boys, girls, players who play above the rim, players who play below the rim, always, period.
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  #79 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 26, 2008, 12:12pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrapper1
How about just watch the ball, since that's your primary coverage and trust your partner to watch the players, since that's his/her primary coverage?

Last night has convinced me that anybody who says otherwise is simply overthinking. The title of the thread is "where is your focus?" The trail's focus is the flight of the ball. The lead's focus is the rebounding players.
From trail position, the ball is not the primary coverage it is one thing of many that must be covered...

Trail always has perimeter and weakside rebounds. lead has strong side and is guessing pretty bad if calls anything more. Lead is not going to see weakside rebound fouls especially from behind. That is trail's call pure and simple.


I would suggest that if you cant watch perimeter and weakside rebounding, he players jumping near the rim, and the ball, your position on the court may be too close. or you are too focused on the ball. Trail has to multi-task...

I went to a camp a few years ago, one of the clinicians made a statement in the camp that has stuck with me... the weight of the world is on trail's shoulders. He was right Trail has a ton of responsibility on the floor in a two person game.

If you think about it lead has an area of about 400-600 sq ft (sorry not a math major) on the floor. Trail has 3500 plus sq ft

You gotta be in a position to call what you need to call. Watching the flight of the ball from shooter to basket, especially when shot was not out of your primary just does not work. if you watch the flight of the ball from hands to basket it means you were not watching your primary in the first place. If you use your peripheral vision you know when shots go up...

If it is from primary you have to make sure shooter does not get decked. get the rebounding action and go to the ball to ensure that other stuff doesnt happen. It can be done with some work... but focusing on the ball all the way is asking for trouble.
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  #80 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 27, 2008, 08:41am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelvin green
From trail position, the ball is not the primary coverage it is one thing of many that must be covered...
Obviously, I'm going to disagree with this. (You already knew that if you read the rest of the thread. ) Yes, the Trail is responsible for lots of stuff. But in my very humble opinion, based on years of training -- not to mention my experience last week -- the flight of the ball is the PRIMARY responsibility of the Trail official.

The thread now moves into "No it isn't", "Yes, it is", "No, it isn't" territory, so I think I'll probably just excuse myself from this point on with the realization that different things work for different people. Leaving the ball early doesn't work for me. :shrug:
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  #81 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 27, 2008, 09:58am
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Couldn't all these things happen fast enough that there are multiple primary things to look at?

Some random thoughts...

Has it really been that long since I've done two-man? Kelvin, I don't understand how you can say Lead is strong side and Trail is weak side unless you work in a system where Lead crosses the lane in two man. Is that the case? If not, don't the players and the play dictate this?

Are you guys saying you literally watch the flight of the ball? This is something that happens fast, but the only time I've ever heard of this is when I read where Reggie Miller watched the flight of his shots. Other than that, I don't know. If I shoot a ball I'm not watching the flight of the ball, I direct my attention to the hoop hoping it isn't one of those rare occasions where I miss. Depending on the depth of the Trail and the location of the shooter, can't we have all of this within our view? If the shot clanks off the rim and goes up, obviously experience will tell us to check to see if it hits anything. I analyze many things, but I guess this isn't one of them up until now.
How many of those saying watch the flight of the ball have called a rebounding foul from Trail, before the ball has hit the rim? Actually, I'm not sure calling that a rebounding foul is accurate. These are often plays where a player gets pushed/pulled totally out of rebounding position.
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  #82 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 27, 2008, 12:24pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrapper1
The thread now moves into "No it isn't", "Yes, it is", "No, it isn't" territory,
No it doesn't
Quote:
so I think I'll probably just excuse myself from this point on with the realization that different things work for different people.
Me too
Quote:
Leaving the ball early doesn't work for me. :shrug:
Me either.

Last edited by Dan_ref; Sun Jan 27, 2008 at 12:32pm.
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  #83 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 27, 2008, 01:40pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrapper1
Obviously, I'm going to disagree with this. (You already knew that if you read the rest of the thread. ) Yes, the Trail is responsible for lots of stuff. But in my very humble opinion, based on years of training -- not to mention my experience last week -- the flight of the ball is the PRIMARY responsibility of the Trail official.
At the risk of extreme ridicule, I'm going to say that I really can't believe this is the hard and fast rule for all situations. In a JV girls' game where there are no guy wires, there's just no reason to follow the flight of the ball, and lots of reasons to be watching top-side action.

You do lots and lots and lots of upper level boys and men's games, and for your level it makes sense to do it your way. Maybe every gym in your area has guy wires. So your rule works for you.

Around here only about half the gyms even have those wires there, and I've only done maybe 10 games where there was any play at all above the rim. On the other hand, I"ll have at least one foul while the ball is in the air for a shot almost every game. If I miss the occasional (once or twice a year?) maybe-it-hit-the-wire, well, yea, I missed it. But if I miss that shove in the back, that sweeping arm to get position ofr the rebound, then there's some royally mad players now looking for blood.

I'm not ignoring the ball entirely, but when the shot goes up, I decide in a hurry how much to be glancing at the flight, and much to be not really looking. And btw, I'm not watching shoelaces. I'm seeing backside action when there are 8 or 10 players in the key. I watching to see whatever lead can't because of crowding.

On the other hand, next year when I'm getting some boys' varsity games, and I might be seeing some play above the rim, I'll be seeing more of the ball, too. based on your recommendation, Scrappy, Dan and others.
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  #84 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 27, 2008, 02:44pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rainmaker
At the risk of extreme ridicule, I'm going to say that I really can't believe this is the hard and fast rule for all situations. In a JV girls' game where there are no guy wires, there's just no reason to follow the flight of the ball, and lots of reasons to be watching top-side action.

You do lots and lots and lots of upper level boys and men's games, and for your level it makes sense to do it your way. Maybe every gym in your area has guy wires. So your rule works for you.

Around here only about half the gyms even have those wires there, and I've only done maybe 10 games where there was any play at all above the rim. On the other hand, I"ll have at least one foul while the ball is in the air for a shot almost every game. If I miss the occasional (once or twice a year?) maybe-it-hit-the-wire, well, yea, I missed it. But if I miss that shove in the back, that sweeping arm to get position ofr the rebound, then there's some royally mad players now looking for blood.

I'm not ignoring the ball entirely, but when the shot goes up, I decide in a hurry how much to be glancing at the flight, and much to be not really looking. And btw, I'm not watching shoelaces. I'm seeing backside action when there are 8 or 10 players in the key. I watching to see whatever lead can't because of crowding.
Can't we all agree that this part of Juulie's post is a pretty darn good example of what really happens on these plays and the fact that it is determined by what level of play you have?
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  #85 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 27, 2008, 02:49pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomegun
Can't we all agree that this part of Juulie's post is a pretty darn good example of what really happens on these plays and the fact that it is determined by what level of play you have?
Hey, I'm a uniter, not a divider!
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  #86 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 27, 2008, 03:39pm
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"w"

Quote:
Originally Posted by rainmaker
I'm a uniter, not a divider!
George W. Bush
May 6, 1999
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