Use of the word "allowance" in NFHS rule 9-7-3...?

[PSidbury]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

If they don't immediately shoot in one fluid connected motion, you call the violation.

What I think I am reading in your replies is that upon receipt of ball the player must move immediately regardless of dribble or stationary shot attempt.

But... the rule doesn't say "dribbles in AND moves immediately", it says "dribbles in OR moves immediately".

Its that "OR" part of this rule that leaves a lot to be defined.
It seems to give the player the option to either 1) dribble in to try for goal; OR, 2) move immediately to try for goal.

With that being said, the rule would "allow" a player already in lane for <3 seconds to receive the ball and then "back down" his opponent as he "dribbles in" toward the goal.

I am really trying to not "read too much into the rules," nor split hairs. However, there is clearly an "OR" in that rule and not an "AND".

Plus, using an unquantified expression like "Allowance shall be made..." leaves the door open to have varying interpretations and outcomes for this type of lane play.

Thanks,
Paul

[jdw3018]

The backing down just doesn't fit the intent of the rule, IMO. The player may shoot, or make a move to shoot, but a slow "back down" is not a move to score nor a dribble in to score. It is a dribble in to get a different position which may or may not give a good attempt to score.

Again, this is a judgement call for you as an official.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

The backing down just doesn't fit the intent of the rule, IMO. The player may shoot, or make a move to shoot, but a slow "back down" is not a move to score nor a dribble in to score. It is a dribble in to get a different position which may or may not give a good attempt to score.

Again, this is a judgement call for you as an official.

So to "dribble in," he's not allowed to have his back to the basket? I must have missed that part of the rule.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

So to "dribble in," he's not allowed to have his back to the basket? I must have missed that part of the rule.

He said a "slow back down". You missed that part of the post.

A slow back down is not an immediate move for goal imo either. As he said, it's trying to gain a better position to shoot from.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

He said a "slow back down". You missed that part of the post.

A slow back down is not an immediate move for goal imo either. As he said, it's trying to gain a better position to shoot from.

Evidently BOTH of you missed the part of the rule that says "dribbles in OR moves immediately to try for goal."

The rule does NOT say "dribbles in immediately to try for goal," now does it?

[PSidbury]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

The rule does NOT say "dribbles in immediately to try for goal," now does it?

Amen.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Evidently BOTH of you missed the part of the rule that says "dribbles in OR moves immediately to try for goal."

The rule does NOT say "dribbles in immediately to try for goal," now does it?

Evidently you are wrong. I know what the rule says.

However, I read it to be that he must either dribble in immediately or move immediately to try for a goal. The application of immediately is unclear. And I just don't interpret a back-down dribble (at least how I'm picturing) to be dribbling in to try for a goal. I interpret dribble in immediately as meaning an "action" move, not a "work to get myself in position so then I can decide to shoot" move.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Evidently BOTH of you missed the part of the rule that says "dribbles in OR moves immediately to try for goal."

The rule does NOT say "dribbles in immediately to try for goal," now does it?

Are you saying that the language is stating that the word "immediately" only applies to trying for goal? If so, I disagree. My interpretation is that you have to either immediately dribble in or you have to immediately try for goal.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

My interpretation is that you have to either immediately dribble in or you have to immediately try for goal.

It doesn't say that though, does it?

PSidbury, we've debated this time and time again on this forum. The truth is the NFHS has never defined it for us. I would just say don't go outside the standard that is used in your area. Discuss it at your local clinics and see how others are calling it and what your supervisor says. There's a lot of room for judgment in this scenario.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Are you saying that the language is stating that the word "immediately" only applies to trying for goal? If so, I disagree. My interpretation is that you have to either immediately dribble in or you have to immediately try for goal.

You can't apply the immediately to both the dribble and the try. It's either one or the other.

Let me enumerate the possibilities by expanding the OR:

1. (dribbles in immediately OR moves immediately) to try for goal
   • Doens't say the try has to be immediate
   • A dribble inward must be immediate (ending in a try)
     • the dribble hasn't been given a time limit or speed
   • a movement must be immediate (ending in a try)
     • such movement hasn't been given a time limit or speed
2. (dribbles in) OR (moves immediately) to try for goal
   • Doens't say the try has to be immediate
   • A dribble inward doesn't necessarily have to be immediate
   • • the dribble hasn't been given a time limit or speed
   • a non-dribble movement must be immediate (ending in a try)
3. (dribbles in OR moves) (immediately to try for goal)
   • Grammatical nonsense...for immediately to apply to the goal, it would have to appear in a different location....
     • to immediately try for a goal
     • to try for an immediate goal

As you can see, there is no way for the immedaite to be applied to the goal. The only sensible options are that the actions that precede the goal must begin by the 3 second mark and must continune to a point ending in a goal. If they cease, the allowance is lost.

How does this end up working....player in the lane just inside the FT line for 2.9 seconds and starts a dribble moving towards the basket. As long as that move continues towards the basket and ends in a try, there is no violation. If the player drives down the right side, gets stoped, and reverses to back across to the other side (or just stops), 3 seconds. As soon as they reverse directions, it's over. If they pump fake immediately to a shot, I'm not calling 3 seconds. If they pump fake and pause afterwards, violation. They get one chance to make a play.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

So to "dribble in," he's not allowed to have his back to the basket? I must have missed that part of the rule.

I just don't see a "back-down" as part of a scoring move, and that's how I interpret the rule and how I'm interpreting the term "back-down" as well.

There are ways a player can dribble with his/her back to the basket that would be part of a move to score, and those would qualify under the exception IMO. Again, it's a judgement call, and the only point I'm making is that a multiple dribble "slow" back-down does not qualify under the exception.

If it did, a player could back down from the FT line to the goal with a dozen dribbles over 5 seconds...

[PSidbury]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

If it did, a player could back down from the FT line to the goal with a dozen dribbles over 5 seconds...

Which is my entire issue with the way this rule is written.
Too much is left to individual interpretation.

The rule does not say "dribbles in immediately", "immediately dribbles in", nor "dribbles and moves immediately."

It gives two options: either to dribble in OR move immediatley to try for goal.

But, I think we may all agree that backing-down is not in the spirit (whatever that means) of how this rule is written and intended to be administered... even though backing-down is still a form of dribbling in to try for goal.

[Kelvin green]

If a player backs down for 5 seconds, there is a rule that covers that one as well...( Closely Guarded)

If he is backing a player down there is closely guarded. ...

Use some judgement but it wont be hard... the max he will have the ball in the paint after he has caught it is 5.....

I believe ( I am not an English Major) that the immediately modifies both the dribbles in or moves part of the book.

Read my interpretation as dribble or a move that goes to the basket immediately.

I think you are reading too much into the rule. He is in the paint and gets the ball. He has to go to the basket or shoot MULTIPLE moves, fakes, etc dont work.because that is not immediate. ( I normally let them fake once... but more than that is too much)

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by Kelvin green

If a player backs down for 5 seconds, there is a rule that covers that one as well...( Closely Guarded)

So, you'll allow a player to be in the paint for 2.5 seconds near the free throw line, then back his way down for an additional 4.5 seconds, then pick up the ball, pump fake, and shoot?