Good or No Good?

[Gimlet25id]

The following play was posted on another forum. Interested to see what kind of responses it brings here.

There is dead ball timeout with 3.5 seconds on the clock. Team takes it out of bounds after the timeout. They throw the ball to the other end where a kid catches it, bobbles it passes to another kid who shoots it. It hits the backboard where another kid picks it up and makes a layup.....NO BUZZER!! The clock never started.

What are the referees supposed to do in this situation?

The team that is throwing in is trailing by one point, 56 to 57.

[Zoochy]

I, and other officials, would be do a count in our heads. You know for last second shot. If I got to 4 and did not hear a horn, then I would try to take a peek at the clock. Make note that it was not running. Look at the player with the ball and see the status. If ball is out of hand, then the shot is good. If Ball is still in hand, then blow the whistle and state the game is over. I have definite knowledge of time that should have past. It is more than 3.5 seconds. GAME OVER. Run like HELL.

[JRutledge]

It depends if the officials have some definite knowledge of what time ran off the clock. Was the ball in the backcourt? Did the official have a 10 second count? Was the ball in the FC? And how fast was the shot?

With all of that being said, I would lean towards doing the entire thing over and making sure I am watching the clock. I do not see how easy it would be to know 3.5 seconds went off the clock simply in my head.

Peace

[Gimlet25id]

Additional information...I didn't see this play..I'm relaying what was written.

B/C E/L throw-in. Ball is passed almost the entire length of the floor. The officials get together and have a lengthy discussion which is followed by a long discussion with the coaches. They wave the basket and call the game.

[buffett]

The prior posts have covered how to handle that situation well. I will answer the question from a different angle. Earlier this season I was in a game that had .5 seconds on the clock and the offensive team with the ball and behind by one point. During the timeout, we convened as a crew and went over our responsibilties on the final play. My partner(tableside L) who was handling the throw-in told us after he put the ball in play he would check the clock to be sure it started properly. The player who caught the inbounds pass turned and fired up a prayer. The horn blew while the ball was in the air and on its way to the winning shot. I thought his plan to watch the clock start on was a great idea. I will keep that in my bag of tricks for future games.

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by buffett

The prior posts have covered how to handle that situation well. I will answer the question from a different angle. Earlier this season I was in a game that had .5 seconds on the clock and the offensive team with the ball and behind by one point. During the timeout, we convened as a crew and went over our responsibilties on the final play. My partner(tableside L) who was handling the throw-in told us after he put the ball in play he would check the clock to be sure it started properly. The player who caught the inbounds pass turned and fired up a prayer. The horn blew while the ball was in the air and on its way to the winning shot. I thought his plan to watch the clock start on was a great idea. I will keep that in my bag of tricks for future games.

I think we all would agree that we have to be good clock managers. With this play they weren't and they had a made basket with no time off the clock. The question is what should the referee's do?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

Additional information...I didn't see this play..I'm relaying what was written.

B/C E/L throw-in. Ball is passed almost the entire length of the floor. The officials get together and have a lengthy discussion which is followed by a long discussion with the coaches. They wave the basket and call the game.

The only question I would ask the crew is, "How do you know the shot would not count?" Then I would ask, "Who was watching the clock?"

This is not an easy situation without that information. It is possible they got it right or the action took a really long time. Someone just has to watch the clock.

Peace

[Chess Ref]

Lets say they were watching the clock to make sure it started but it didn't
would you

A. tweet, and talk to timer to make sure he got it this time

B. Just count it yourself then blow whistle after time ,in your count , had expired.

[Texas Aggie]

Something similar happened around here a few years ago during a playoff game I went to watch -- not to work (thank God!!). 3.4 seconds left, TO after made basket, so team down by 3, who has the ball, can run the baseline. They throw a pass out of bounds followed by a pass down 3/4s of the court to about the 3 point line a third or so of the way between the top of the key and the corner. Buzzer goes off when he starts to dribble. From replays, I saw that the lead official realizes clock started too soon (on first OOB pass) about the time the buzzer went off.

To make a very long story as short as possible, they replayed it, putting it back at the baseline, but this time, the clock operator accidentally put 3 minutes, 40 seconds on the clock as he couldn't differentiate that on his clock from 3.4 seconds. During this sequence, thee buzzer never goes off, but the clock runs. The long inbounds pass is stolen, the ball is thrown up in the air for jubilation purposes, and when it comes down, the team behind grabs the ball and sinks a 2 point shot. Then, everyone realizes the clock was set wrong. Instead of calling that the game (there were at least 4-5 seconds in all that play), they decide to do it ONE MORE TIME. It ended up with the team ahead winning, but I swear, there would have been a riot there had the team behind tied the game and eventually won.

Know what's on the clock and when it should go off.

[johnnyrao]

Originally Posted by Texas Aggie

Something similar happened around here a few years ago during a playoff game I went to watch -- not to work (thank God!!). 3.4 seconds left, TO after made basket, so team down by 3, who has the ball, can run the baseline. They throw a pass out of bounds followed by a pass down 3/4s of the court to about the 3 point line a third or so of the way between the top of the key and the corner. Buzzer goes off when he starts to dribble. From replays, I saw that the lead official realizes clock started too soon (on first OOB pass) about the time the buzzer went off.

To make a very long story as short as possible, they replayed it, putting it back at the baseline, but this time, the clock operator accidentally put 3 minutes, 40 seconds on the clock as he couldn't differentiate that on his clock from 3.4 seconds. During this sequence, thee buzzer never goes off, but the clock runs. The long inbounds pass is stolen, the ball is thrown up in the air for jubilation purposes, and when it comes down, the team behind grabs the ball and sinks a 2 point shot. Then, everyone realizes the clock was set wrong. Instead of calling that the game (there were at least 4-5 seconds in all that play), they decide to do it ONE MORE TIME. It ended up with the team ahead winning, but I swear, there would have been a riot there had the team behind tied the game and eventually won.

Know what's on the clock and when it should go off.

Now where have I seen this one before...oh yeah, the 1972 Olympic Men's Basketball Final game in Munich.

[johnnyrao]

What do you do if, in the OP, you as one of the officials look at the clock after the first player has caught it? Do you blow it dead right then? If so, where do you give the team the ball, at the POI or is this a "do over"? Or, do you start a visible count and let the play go on, ending it when you rech 3.5?

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by johnnyrao

What do you do if, in the OP, you as one of the officials look at the clock after the first player has caught it? Do you blow it dead right then? If so, where do you give the team the ball, at the POI or is this a "do over"? Or, do you start a visible count and let the play go on, ending it when you rech 3.5?

I blow it dead as soon as I realize it hasn't started. I give the ball back at POI. If I had a count on and got to "1" before blowing the whistle, I take 1 second off the clock.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Texas Aggie

To make a very long story as short as possible, they replayed it, putting it back at the baseline, but this time, the clock operator accidentally put 3 minutes, 40 seconds on the clock as he couldn't differentiate that on his clock from 3.4 seconds.

And no one looking at the scoreboard could tell the difference either?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

With all of that being said, I would lean towards doing the entire thing over and making sure I am watching the clock. I do not see how easy it would be to know 3.5 seconds went off the clock simply in my head.

I guess that can be done in Illinois since that state doesn't use the NFHS officials manual.

2007-09 NFHS Basketball Officials Manual
2.6.2D and 3.6.2D

Clock malfunctions occur; there are no provisions in the rules for "do-overs." Know the rules regarding these unusual situations and apply them appropriately.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Chess Ref

Lets say they were watching the clock to make sure it started but it didn't
would you

A. tweet, and talk to timer to make sure he got it this time

B. Just count it yourself then blow whistle after time ,in your count , had expired.

Probably B because with that little time and a full court pass, I don't want to interrupt a scoring play.
BTW I'm making a VISIBLE COUNT in such situations just in case the timer visits LA-LA land and the clock doesn't start. If I am going to end a period/game without a horn, you can darn well bet that my count is going to show up on video.

Unfortunately, this stuff does happen as the NFHS manual notes. Timers sometimes get excited about the game and involved in watching the action and forget to do their job. We need to know the rules and deal with it properly. That means that if there is no count and no definite knowledge, the basket counts, nothing is taken off the clock and the opponent is awarded an end line throw-in. Sucks for them, but mistakes happen.