Kicking Violation Philosophy

[HawkeyeCubP]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Yup. That's the kicker. (Pun intended.) However, since A didn't release the ball, she cannot then throw the ball off B1's leg for a subsequent team B violation.

I've gotcha, JR. Definitely a tough sell, I'd imagine.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by HawkeyeCubP

Just some devil's advocate here: B's leg was extended purposely away from his/her body, with the intent being to use the extended/outstretched leg to deflect a thrown ball by A1. This happened, no?

Hawkeye Cub:

Is B1's foot in contact with the floor when it and the ball make contact with each other?

MTD, Sr.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

B1's foot was already in the spot. Her legs were extended outward at about a 45 degree angle from the vertical position. She did this leg extension in reaction to A1's fake. There was no positive movement towards the ball.

General Reply:

I was the covering official and I did not have a whistle; I let the play stand. Coach was fuming about the no-call and said that I needed to read the rulebook. I am 100% confident in my no-call, but it has been _years_ since I recall talking about this situation with anyone.

I've got a kick on this.....B1's leg was extended in a position to block an anticipated pass. Even if it was there before the pass was released, it was still intentional.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Yup. That's the kicker. (Pun intended.) However, since A didn't release the ball, she cannot then throw the ball off B1's leg for a subsequent team B violation.

True, but they can still attempt to throw it to a teammate. If they mis-throw and it gets B1's leg which is in a position that can only be intended to block the pass, its a kick.

[HawkeyeCubP]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Hawkeye Cub:

Is B1's foot in contact with the floor when it and the ball make contact with each other?

MTD, Sr.

No, still in the air, extended away from B's body - unless I'm reading the OP wrong - which is always possible.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

I've got a kick on this.....B1's leg was extended in a position to block an anticipated pass. Even if it was there before the pass was released, it was still intentional.

Agreed. The intent was to stop a pass, whether that pass had been thrown yet or not. At least, that's the way I'm envisioning this play...

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by HawkeyeCubP

No, still in the air, extended away from B's body - unless I'm reading the OP wrong - which is always possible.

You are not reading the OP incorrectly.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

Agreed. The intent was to stop a pass, whether that pass had been thrown yet or not. At least, that's the way I'm envisioning this play...

This is a big can of worms, I believe.

At any time a player is "stuck", you are saying that they can fake a pass, and if an opponent's leg moves at all, a subsequent pass to that leg's new position is now a kicked ball.

[wisref2]

The defender intentionally extended her leg - the ball hit it. That's a kick.

I had one last night that I got right but didn't like it. A 2 on 1 fast break, A1 passes to A2 who is wide open under the basket. B1 kicks at it and hits the ball pretty good - but the ball bounces right to A2 for a bunny.

I called it a kick. Nobody said anything. But I thought to myself, "boy, I just screwed A with that call." Of course, not calling it would have probably got me a lot of heat.

[blindzebra]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

I've got a kick on this.....B1's leg was extended in a position to block an anticipated pass. Even if it was there before the pass was released, it was still intentional.

Okay, what if B1 makes an overt move to get his leg in the passing lane but only does so by sticking his leg beyond his frame with his foot still on the floor, there is a delay and the pass then hits his leg.

You calling a kick on that too?

In my opinion if the ball comes to where the leg already is, it isn't intentionally striking the ball, it's a bad pass.

Ball comes to leg = legal.

Leg goes to ball = illegal.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by blindzebra

Okay, what if B1 makes an overt move to get his leg in the passing lane but only does so by sticking his leg beyond his frame with his foot still on the floor, there is a delay and the pass then hits his leg.

You calling a kick on that too?

In my opinion if the ball comes to where the leg already is, it isn't intentionally striking the ball, it's a bad pass.

Ball comes to leg = legal.

Leg goes to ball = illegal.

BZ:

It appears that you are starting to adopt my type of thinking.

Kicking the ball is a violatioin ONLY when the player INTENTIONALLY strikes the ball with his leg. Contact between the ball and the leg when the player's leg movement is a normal movement to maintain a defensive postion or to move from one positon to another is not a violation. If the player's leg is in contact with the floor when there is contact between the player's leg and ball, there cannot be a kicking violation.

If a defensive player throws his leg out at a ball to block a passing lane afther the ball has already left the thrower's hand and the contact between the ball and the defensive player's leg occurs before the defensive player's foot regains contact with floor: that is an example of a kicking violation.

But, if a defensive player throws his leg out at a ball to block a passing lane afther the ball has already left the thrower's hand and the contact between the ball and the defensive player's leg occurs after the defensive player's foot regains contact with floor: there is not kicking violation.

MTD, Sr.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

BZ:

It appears that you are starting to adopt my type of thinking..

Hey, BZ, run!!!

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by blindzebra

Okay, what if B1 makes an overt move to get his leg in the passing lane but only does so by sticking his leg beyond his frame with his foot still on the floor, there is a delay and the pass then hits his leg.

You calling a kick on that too?

Maybe. A player can't intentionally use their leg/foot to contact the ball. Period. If I judge that the player has "used" it in such a manner (to actually block a pass or discourage a pass that eventually hits the leg), it's a kick....no matter if they had it there before the ball was thrown or not.

If that leg is in more of a typical guarding stance....knees slightly out...no kick.

Originally Posted by blindzebra

In my opinion if the ball comes to where the leg already is, it isn't intentionally striking the ball, it's a bad pass.

Ball comes to leg = legal.

Leg goes to ball = illegal.

Mostly, I agree....except for when the defender extends the leg with the purpose of taking away a passing lane with the leg (and not for moving themselves in that direction). The defender doesn't get to cover 2 extra feet of space with their legs if they can get them there before the ball.

[HawkeyeCubP]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

If the player's leg is in contact with the floor when there is contact between the player's leg and ball, there cannot be a kicking violation.

I understand everything you're saying, but I disagree with this statement.

[blindzebra]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Maybe. A player can't intentionally use their leg/foot to contact the ball. Period. If I judge that the player has "used" it in such a manner (to actually block a pass or discourage a pass that eventually hits the leg), it's a kick....no matter if they had it there before the ball was thrown or not.

If that leg is in more of a typical guarding stance....knees slightly out...no kick.



Mostly, I agree....except for when the defender extends the leg with the purpose of taking away a passing lane with the leg (and not for moving themselves in that direction). The defender doesn't get to cover 2 extra feet of space with their legs if they can get them there before the ball.

If a player isn't allowed to go outside his/her frame why isn't touching a pass with an out-stretched arm illegal?

The reason behind a kick and punching the ball being illegal is for safety not gaining an advantage by making yourself bigger.

I really think the spirit and intent of the rule needs to be used on this one.