Traveling, Held Ball or... Both?

[inigo montoya]

The other day I was perusing my case book before a game. I came across something which puzzled me then and then my partner when I asked him. I was using the 07-08 books, but copied from the 06-07 for convenience (07-08 is not handy and i couldn't copy/paste anyway).

4.25.2 Situation:
A1 jumps to try for goal or to pass the ball.B1 leaps or reaches and is able to put his/her hands on the ball and keep A1 from releasing it. A1: (a) returns to the floor with the ball; or (b) is unable to control the ball and it drops to the floor.
Ruling: A held ball results immediately in (a) and (b) when airborne A1 is prevented from releasing the ball to pass or try for goal.

4.44.3 Situation A:
A1 jumps to try for goal. B1 also jumps and: (a) slaps the ball out of A1’s hands; (b) touches the ball but does not prevent A1 from releasing the ball; (c) touches the ball and A1 returns to the floor holding the ball; or (d) touches the ball and A1 drops it to the floor and touches it first after it bounces.
Ruling: In (a) and (b), the ball remains live. In (c), a traveling violation. In (d), a violation for starting a dribble with the pivot foot off the floor. Since the touching did not prevent the pass or try in (b), (c) and (d), the ball remains live and subsequent action is covered by rules which apply to the situation.

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What is the difference in 4.25.2(a) & 4.44.3sitA(c) and 4.25.2(b) and 4.44.3sitA(d)?

[jdw3018]

The situations are different because in 4.44.3 the ball is released, while in 4.25.2 the ball is not released. I think 4.44.3 could be reworded to make it more clear, but when reading with some context that is what the case play is describing.

[wisref2]

The difference is noted in the comments at the end. In the first instance, the contact prevent A from releasing the ball. In the second, A could have released the ball but did not. It's a judgement call, but usually pretty obvious when you see it. If in doubt, rule it a held ball.

[inigo montoya]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

The situations are different because in 4.44.3 the ball is released, while in 4.25.2 the ball is not released. I think 4.44.3 could be reworded to make it more clear, but when reading with some context that is what the case play is describing.

It seems to me that both 25 and 44 have one case where the ball is released and one where it is not released.

[Nevadaref]

In the first case play the player in control desired to release the ball, but was prevented from doing so by an opponent's contact with the ball, thus the held ball decision.

In the second case the player with the ball did not attempt to release the ball, the touching of it by an opponent is not important, thus the traveling violation.

[inigo montoya]

Originally Posted by wisref2

The difference is noted in the comments at the end. In the first instance, the contact prevent A from releasing the ball. In the second, A could have released the ball but did not. It's a judgement call, but usually pretty obvious when you see it. If in doubt, rule it a held ball.

That's all we could come up with (a judgment call), but that's only really implied in the case and not stated. In other words, in 4.25.2 the defender's hand is on the ball and A1 is prevented from releasing it. In 4.44.3sitA(b), it is plainly stated that the defender does NOT prevent the ball from being released. In contrast, the text in (c) does not state either way, just that A1 does not release the ball after it is contacted by the defender.

It seems like an awfully tough judgment to determine what A1 was capable of. What if he could have released it, but not for a quality shot? What's the threshold?

[inigo montoya]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

In the first case play the player in control desired to release the ball, but was prevented from doing so by an opponent's contact with the ball, thus the held ball decision.

In the second case the player with the ball did not attempt to release the ball, the touching of it by an opponent is not important, thus the traveling violation.

Not trying to pick a fight, just to understand.

In the second case play, A1 desired to release the ball because he "jumps to try for goal." That's why I'm concerned about a judgment for "what did the offense 'want' to do."

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by inigo montoya

In the second case play, A1 desired to release the ball because he "jumps to try for goal." That's why I'm concerned about a judgment for "what did the offense 'want' to do."

Perhaps he changed his mind after jumping.
I had a play last week in which a player (A1) went airborne looking to throw a pass, however, none of his teammates were open and he clearly held onto the ball too long and was coming back down with it. An opponent (B1) who had also jumped to defend the play barely touched the ball. The touch by B1 had no effect on what A1 was doing with the ball, so I called a travel when A1 landed while still holding the ball. Just because an opponent happened to make contact with the ball doesn't absolve A1 of wrong-doing and automatically make the play a held ball.

[BillyMac]

When an airborne player keeps control of an attempted shot that is blocked and is unable to release the ball and returns to the floor with it, that player has not traveled; it is a jump ball. If, in this situation, the shooter releases the ball, then this is simply a blocked shot and play continues.