QF1Y: Mechanics Question Lead/Trail

[JRutledge]

If I am asking for help, I am asking because the ball came from a place where it is very possible I am screened off. I do not like going to the arrow at all. It looks like you and your partners do not know what they are doing. Give the ball to someone. You are not always going to be perfect on an out of bounds calls and even when you have the best look, someone thinks you screwed them up. Very few times as well do coaches get that upset over an out of bounds call anyway. If my partner is asking for help, I am giving them a direction.

Peace

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I certainly won't do that because the mere act of going to your partner lets everyone in the gym know that you think that he got it wrong. IMO that isn't being a good partner. I suggest that you simply freeze and make eye contact or do something else subtle and then he can come to you, if he is unsure, or stick with his decision and inbound the ball.

Oh, you're into the cute eye winks subtle hand signal thing to communicate to your partner that he f'ed it up. That's fine.

Me? I'm a big boy & if my partner comes to me cause he thinks I missed an OOB that's fine. Remember that trust your partner thing? Works here too. If I know I'm right the call stays the same, if I really didn't get a good look then I'll change it. Either way he's getting a big thank you from me.

Personally, I've never understood this obsession with coming to fix one's partner's OOB decisions. For those who advocate this why doesn't the same principle apply for fouls? If your partner calls a foul and you are 100% sure that he missed it, do you go over and talk to him before he reports?

Ah right, the slippery slope. Nice try.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

I'll be quite honest, here. My regular partner is going to give the subtle signals I mentioned above. If he doesn't and I'm not 100% sure but leaning in one direction, I'll call it that way rather than go to the arrow (and I'm not really hesitating more in my call than I would for any other). If the game's a complete blowout, then it's even easier to make the call

It's only when I have no idea whatsover and my partner doesn't that I'd go to the arrow, and I don't think that's happened more than 1-2 times in the past 3 seasons.

I'm talking about when you blow your whistle, hesitate and look at your partner. At this point, you almost have to go to the whistle. I had one of these this year where I went with the way I was leaning after the delay, rather than the arrow. Of course, I had to put the ball in play in the hip pocket of the coach the call went against.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

Oh, you're into the cute eye winks subtle hand signal thing to communicate to your partner that he f'ed it up. That's fine.

Me? I'm a big boy & if my partner comes to me cause he thinks I missed an OOB that's fine. Remember that trust your partner thing? Works here too. If I know I'm right the call stays the same, if I really didn't get a good look then I'll change it. Either way he's getting a big thank you from me.

Doesn't your partner trust you? If so, then why is he coming over?
If you didn't really get a good look then why are you making a call in the first place?

PS The slope argument makes the point of just how ridiculous engaging in this action is. Afterall, isn't a foul more important than an OOB? So why are we fixing OOB calls and not foul calls? Completely ludicrous.

[kbilla]

I had a partner a few weeks ago who from the T blew an out of bounds on his sideline and immediately and emphatically threw his thumbs up for a jump ball..from the L I was pretty sure who I saw who it go off of (near the corner), but it happened so fast and he was so emphatic in making the statement that he had no idea that I just stayed out of it and put the ball back in play quickly...there were other issues this day with this partner though as well, too much to get into.....

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Doesn't your partner trust you? If so, then why is he coming over?
If you didn't really get a good look then why are you making a call in the first place?

Well you're right, if I know I didn't get a good look I'm going for help. But sometimes something happens outside of your range of vision that you can't possibly know about... like a tip on a pass outside of your primary. And all of us have had those "...geeze on second thought..." moments when we replay the play back in our minds.

PS The slope argument makes the point of just how ridiculous engaging in this action is. Afterall, isn't a foul more important than an OOB? So why are we fixing OOB calls and not foul calls? Completely ludicrous.

Well let's see. If you're U and the R lines up the jumpers the wrong way to start the game you're not gonna say something? Or if your partner is administering a FT with the players not properly lined up...or if he's about to give the ball to the player you just know is not the right shooter...?

Watch out for that first step, it's a big one.

[FrankHtown]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

And that's good because... you've tried to please a coach?
Any official who makes a call should be sure of the call. Any official who is unsure should be seeking help and NOT making a call. Hence if my partner makes a call, he must be sure, and therefore why would I want to go stick my nose in his business?

I'm lead...I see Defender's backside from across the paint. Pass comes in..ball goes out of bounds. I'm sure it was a bad pass by the offense. I call it out off offense. What I didn't see was the defender's hand reach in and touch the ball, which the Trail saw clearly.

I guess in Nevada the players always arrange themselves so the officials always have perfect sight lines. I need to move there.

[Splute]

I agree. If my partner saw the deflection that I didnt see, I want to know. You get some indication by the reaction of the players too. Your partner sharing what he sees helps get the ball to the correct team. I am not offended or embarassed by my co-official sharing this info. Yes Nevada I only offer this for OOB situations where we are encouraged to assist our partners. It is still their call. Fouls and other infractions we live and die by them and discuss we each other at our first opportunity as what was seen or why specifically called. This too builds trust.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by FrankHtown

I'm lead...I see Defender's backside from across the paint. Pass comes in..ball goes out of bounds. I'm sure it was a bad pass by the offense. I call it out off offense. What I didn't see was the defender's hand reach in and touch the ball, which the Trail saw clearly.

I guess in Nevada the players always arrange themselves so the officials always have perfect sight lines. I need to move there.

No, Frank, in Nevada the Lead blows his whistle and asks his partner for help instead of signalling a direction for the OOB when looking at a player's backside and is unable to see the ball the entire way.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Splute

I agree. If my partner saw the deflection that I didnt see, I want to know. You get some indication by the reaction of the players too. Your partner sharing what he sees helps get the ball to the correct team. I am not offended or embarassed by my co-official sharing this info. Yes Nevada I only offer this for OOB situations where we are encouraged to assist our partners. It is still their call. Fouls and other infractions we live and die by them and discuss we each other at our first opportunity as what was seen or why specifically called. This too builds trust.

And I am probing the logic behind that. Why come in and help with OOB, but do nothing when a partner calls a foul?

[kbilla]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

No, Frank, in Nevada the Lead blows his whistle and asks his partner for help instead of signalling a direction for the OOB when looking at a player's backside and is unable to see the ball the entire way.

Come on though Nevada, there are times when you are 100% certain that you have the correct call and there is something that you just didn't see. If it has never happened to you then you are either that good or that lucky, b/c every pregame that I have been a part of has included this statement made either by me or whoever is the R - "If I make an OOB call and you see something that you are 100% certain of that is contrary to my call, come in and tell me. I'll consider it, but I will always change my own call" IMO it looks better to make a call and then change it maybe what - once every second or third game that this comes up, than it does to be constantly looking for help when you were probably right in the first place.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

Well let's see. If you're U and the R lines up the jumpers the wrong way to start the game you're not gonna say something? Or if your partner is administering a FT with the players not properly lined up...or if he's about to give the ball to the player you just know is not the right shooter...?

Watch out for that first step, it's a big one.

Dan,
I'm actually serious about this issue. See my post directly above.

As for my answers to what you have posed, I have to say that the circumstances are entirely different there. Your partner hasn't made a call of any kind in those situations, he is simply about to incorrectly administer the game. I have no issue whatsoever with stepping in to prevent a screw-up. However, the issue that I've brought up in this thread deals with stepping in AFTER your partner has MADE a call and a screw-up. What is the reason for living with the screwed up foul calls, but fixing the wrong OOB calls (or backcourt violations, double dribble, traveling, etc.)

What makes a foul call so special?

[kbilla]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

And I am probing the logic behind that. Why come in and help with OOB, but do nothing when a partner calls a foul?

B/C the level of subjectivity with a foul is about 10X that of an OOB call and depends so much more on what look you had at the play. Which is why we say don't come in with help if you just "think" you saw it, come in if you have definite knowledge of something...

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Dan,
I'm actually serious about this issue. See my post directly above.

So am I.

Your slippery slope begins at the distinction between fouls and violations. Mine begins elsewhere. I can't help you explain why you view fouls/violations as something separate and distinct from the rest of the rules. So let's just agree to disagree, I'll keep doing it the right way & you'll do it your way.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by kbilla

B/C the level of subjectivity with a foul is about 10X that of an OOB call and depends so much more on what look you had at the play.

That's a very reasonable answer.

Now let's push the envelope and inquire whether anyone would attempt to "help" their partner when he has obviously kicked a call on a play that was directly in front of you (well within your PCA) and despite you being 100% sure that there was no foul on the play, your partner has called one.