Ref not Reffing Trying to Ref. OK??

[reddevil19]

Originally Posted by Corndog89

You noted that in a subsequent post that you were not the official book for the game..."I did not seek to insert myself into the discussion because I didn't feel it was my place as visiting/non-official scorer." So, as far as answering the questions the two game officials asked you regarding V#25, I think you were correct to report what you saw happen when asked about it. I would even appreciate a table member's help de-escalating events by preventing a player from doing something wrong or stupid.

However, I have a couple questions for you as a non-member of the officiating crew sitting at the table. You stated you physically refrained A25 from leaving the X and entering the fray (see boldface in your OP above) and "told him to kneel there until everything had stopped, so that nobody would think he left the bench." Later you said "During one of the 'lulls' while the game officials were at midcourt, I gave our coach the heads up to be prepared in the event they started discussing #25. I felt that it would be best to have the coach bring it up, and have him appeal to the officials to ask the table for help, if they did not ask first themselves."

My questions are: 1) If the substitute player waiting to enter the game had been from the home team, i.e., not the team you are associated with, would you have given him, and later his coach, the same consideration and help you did the player from your team? and 2) Would you have been as ready to "help" the officials with the substitute's actions/location if the the sub had been from the home team?

I ask these questions because when I officiate a game I expect the table crew to be unbiased members of the officiating crew. Can I expect a completely honest answer from an unbiased guy sitting at the table? Now I'm not asking these questions to challenge your honesty or integrity or imply you were trying to "pull one over" on the officials...in fact you sound like your actions in this instance were honest and correct. I'm just trying to identify another element of potential confusion for the officials. I wouldn't ask a member of one team for clarifying information and expect a credible or totally honest answer, but if I see you're at the table, in the heat of the moment I may have forgotten or been confused as to who my "table teammates" are. In other words, as a biased observer, should you have ever been asked what you saw? And did you tell the officials you restrained A25 from leaving the X from your position at the table and then later advised the Visiting coach of that information? And no, the Varsity official should not have "helped" beyond the procedural assistance.

Corndog, you ask some good questions.

1. I can say without a doubt that had the sub been from the other team in the same situation, I would have made every effort to tell their coach that the player did not in fact leave the table area. I would also have made every attempt to VERBALLY get the player to stay where he was. However, I wouldn't attempt to physically restrain another team's player due to all the garbage that could come along with it.

2. Again, if asked, I would say what I observed happened and hope that the right decisions are made.

Another part of all of this, and something that I think lends to having more possibilities for situations like these to arise in moments of confusion, is that I, the visiting team scorekeeper, was the only ADULT at that table and maybe that's why they asked me and were initially reporting to me (In fact, the home coach interrupted the reporting process to ask why they were reporting to me and not to "his" book. But, indeed, I do recognize that as visiting book, I had no "official" status and was not part of "the table". So yes, I probably should not have been asked, but since I was, I gave the honest answers.

[Reffing Rev.]

My credo in officiating is a simple one, GET IT RIGHT! and when possible look good doing it. (mechanics wise) That being said I tried to put myself in the shoes of various people out there and see what I would do...

Floor Official: Fight=crazy! Guy off the court offering assistance like that, if I know he is a colleage I might say thanks, if not I'm having the AD move him. When he says I need to get #25 too, I am asking my partner and the table and telling him we'll decide that.

Observing Official: I hate it when I am just watching and crazy things happen to inexperienced officials because I WANT TO HELP! But at the same time I know no matter where I am or who knows who I am anything I do can get very messy. If I know the guys on the court I am going to make sure they see me so they can ask me if they want to. If not, I am going to bite my tongue! We probably share a locker room so after the JV game before I hit the floor we'll talk about it.

Home-Table Official: I always had written down with me who was in and who had reported so I could tell the floor ref 25 had reported in, and when the scuffle broke out I would yell at 25 to hold his spot, but I would never RESTRAIN a player, don't touch!

Away-Table Official: I've never been given the credibility of as a talbe official when away from home.

Evaluator/Assignor: Unfortunately I have to say the observing official acted in an unprofessional way and I would inform him and his assignor of the situation. (I might not agree but that is what I would do)

Coach: "Who the heck is this guy, get him out of here."

[JoeTheRef]

Originally Posted by Reffing Rev.

Observing Official: I hate it when I am just watching and crazy things happen to inexperienced officials because I WANT TO HELP! But at the same time I know no matter where I am or who knows who I am anything I do can get very messy. If I know the guys on the court I am going to make sure they see me so they can ask me if they want to. If not, I am going to bite my tongue! We probably share a locker room so after the JV game before I hit the floor we'll talk about it.

I'm in the camp that says this is what the veteran varsity observing official should have done. If the less experienced officials ask for your help, it should only be a "rules" question.

I do agree that the veteran was okay with telling the on-court officials to move away from the table to discuss. He darn shouldn't have been giving details on who should've been ejected.

[Corndog89]

Originally Posted by reddevil19

Corndog, you ask some good questions.

1. I can say without a doubt that had the sub been from the other team in the same situation, I would have made every effort to tell their coach that the player did not in fact leave the table area. I would also have made every attempt to VERBALLY get the player to stay where he was. However, I wouldn't attempt to physically restrain another team's player due to all the garbage that could come along with it.

2. Again, if asked, I would say what I observed happened and hope that the right decisions are made.

Understand and based on everything you've said I believe you.

Originally Posted by reddevil19

Another part of all of this, and something that I think lends to having more possibilities for situations like these to arise in moments of confusion, is that I, the visiting team scorekeeper, was the only ADULT at that table and maybe that's why they asked me and were initially reporting to me (In fact, the home coach interrupted the reporting process to ask why they were reporting to me and not to "his" book. But, indeed, I do recognize that as visiting book, I had no "official" status and was not part of "the table". So yes, I probably should not have been asked, but since I was, I gave the honest answers.

The only adult at the table situation occurs too often and I appreciate the situation you were put in. I'm part of a new association in a new state this year and one of the best things they do is assign a scorekeeper and clock operator to all high school games...it's GREAT!

This is a good post...thanks.