end of game timing issue

[rainmaker]

It seems as though the rules as stated by JR would pretty much match "common sense". One second isn't very much time to control the ball and then signal a TO. I don't see how a coach could think they "deserve" any extra time, regardless of whether the clock was right.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by just another ref

To explain further, when I say that the clock may have started early, it may be totally unjustified. How long is a long time for a player to be in the air in a play such as this. I have no information about exactly how much height or distance was covered, but I picture a steal based more on anticipation than on any kind of incredibly athletic play. Also, we must remember that the catch was made while the player was already in the air, so if the timing was correct, the hang time was some amount in excess of 1.2. Is this a long time in the air or not?

Did the math myself. If this kid is traveling at 14 mph, (100 yd. dash in 14.6)
in 1.2 seconds he would cover nearly 25 feet. Sounds doubtful to me.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Also, we must remember that the catch was made while the player was already in the air, so if the timing was correct, the hang time was some amount in excess of 1.2. Is this a long time in the air or not?

Just to add to this: I watched a Sports Science episode where they timed hang-time for some high-flying NBA players.

None of them were in the air an entire second. Just over .9 was the best.

So, while it has nothing to do with what you can and can't do as an official in this situation, there is absolutely no way 1.2 seconds can come off the clock between the time the player gathers the ball in the air and returns to the ground...

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

Just to add to this: I watched a Sports Science episode where they timed hang-time for some high-flying NBA players.

None of them were in the air an entire second. Just over .9 was the best.

So, while it has nothing to do with what you can and can't do as an official in this situation, there is absolutely no way 1.2 seconds can come off the clock between the time the player gathers the ball in the air and returns to the ground...

But how much time can come off after the kid lands and the official recognizes that and then sounds the whistle, AND THEN the timer reacts to the sound and stops the clock?

I can see the game legitimately being over in this case.

A couple of other comments:
The only way that the clock can be returned to 1.2 seconds, even if an official observes it start early, is if the official sounds the whistle IMMEDIATELY before the throw-in is touched inbounds. Of course, this will prevent the defense from making the steal.

The only way that a fraction of a second can be returned to the clock is if an official looks at the clock and sees time remaining AFTER the whistle is sounded for either the granting of the time-out or the OOB violation. Otherwise the game is over.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

But how much time can come off after the kid lands and the official recognizes that and then sounds the whistle, AND THEN the timer reacts to the sound and stops the clock?

I can see the game legitimately being over in this case.

A couple of other comments:
The only way that the clock can be returned to 1.2 seconds, even if an official observes it start early, is if the official sounds the whistle IMMEDIATELY before the throw-in is touched inbounds. Of course, this will prevent the defense from making the steal.

The only way that a fraction of a second can be returned to the clock is if an official looks at the clock and sees time remaining AFTER the whistle is sounded for either the granting of the time-out or the OOB violation. Otherwise the game is over.

I agree with everything you say. All I was posting is that it was physically impossible for him to have the ball and be in the air that long.

[Johnny Ringo]

Good stuff ... Hangtime!

Watch that video!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

The only way that a fraction of a second can be returned to the clock is if an official looks at the clock and sees time remaining AFTER the whistle is sounded for either the granting of the time-out or the OOB violation. Otherwise the game is over.

Agree except for the part highlighted. I think that the time of the whistle isn't really applicable. It's the time that you see on the clock when you mentally grant the TO. Thoughts?

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Agree except for the part highlighted. I think that the time of the whistle isn't really applicable. It's the time that you see on the clock when you mentally grant the TO. Thoughts?

This is a really good point, and brings up a question in my mind. The time when the TO is granted in my mind is when it counts? But in the middle of the game, the few seconds it takes for me to whistle it and the timer to stop the clock doesn't matter, so we don't sweat it. But near the end of the game, we are allowed to glance at the clock, and then set it to the time when we mentally grant the TO? Is that what you're saying?

[ronny mulkey]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Agree except for the part highlighted. I think that the time of the whistle isn't really applicable. It's the time that you see on the clock when you mentally grant the TO. Thoughts?

I would think that any timing error could be caught by having a count upon the legal touching of the ball. Although I can't count in tenths, I wouldn't have any problem with putting .2 back on a clock if I felt the T.O. request occurred within my "one thousand one" assuming the clock ran out and i wouldn't have any problem with game over if my count reached "one thousand two" assuming the clock had not reached zero.

[blindzebra]

Originally Posted by ronny mulkey

I would think that any timing error could be caught by having a count upon the legal touching of the ball. Although I can't count in tenths, I wouldn't have any problem with putting .2 back on a clock if I felt the T.O. request occurred within my "one thousand one" assuming the clock ran out and i wouldn't have any problem with game over if my count reached "one thousand two" assuming the clock had not reached zero.

Which is why I always keep a count...even when I don't have a reason to count...during last second situations.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Agree except for the part highlighted. I think that the time of the whistle isn't really applicable. It's the time that you see on the clock when you mentally grant the TO. Thoughts?

I think that's just mental and have to disagree.
By rule, the timer is to stop the clock upon the official's signal (2-12-6). That means seeing a hand up or upon hearing the whistle. If that takes place, then no timing error has occurred. Are you now expecting the timer to read the official's mind?

Lah me.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I think that's just mental and have to disagree.
By rule, the timer is to stop the clock upon the official's signal (2-12-6). That means seeing a hand up or upon hearing the whistle. If that takes place, then no timing error has occurred. Are you now expecting the timer to read the official's mind?

Lah me.

Oh? Try reading the applicable rule- R5-8-3----"Time out occurs and the clock, if running, shall stop when an official GRANTS a player's/head coach's oral or visual request for a timeout."

No, I don't expect the timer to read an official's mind. I do expect an official to look at the clock however and note the time on it when he GRANTS the TO. That's definite information and it's the time that he can put back up on the clock, by rule(5-10).

Lah me, indeed......

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Oh? Try reading the applicable rule- R5-8-3----"Time out occurs and the clock, if running, shall stop when an official GRANTS a player's/head coach's oral or visual request for a timeout."

No, I don't expect the timer to read an official's mind. I do expect an official to look at the clock however and note the time on it when he GRANTS the TO. That's definite information and it's the time that he can put back up on the clock, by rule(5-10).

Lah me, indeed......

And how exactly does an official grant a time-out?

Are you advocating that he just thinks it, and that no action is required?

[ronny mulkey]

Originally Posted by blindzebra

Which is why I always keep a count...even when I don't have a reason to count...during last second situations.

I have a count anytime the clock is supposed to be started and continue it until I can glance at the clock to make sure it got started. That allows me to always correct it if it doesn't get started. Under 10.0, I have a count on the starting and stopping.

I am not saying this 'holier than thou" because I have had to really really work hard at this AND I have learned the hard way with inept or homer clock keepers.

Mulk

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by ronny mulkey

I have a count anytime the clock is supposed to be started and continue it until I can glance at the clock to make sure it got started. That allows me to always correct it if it doesn't get started. Under 10.0, I have a count on the starting and stopping.

I am not saying this 'holier than thou" because I have had to really really work hard at this AND I have learned the hard way with inept or homer clock keepers.

Mulk

Excellent advice.