Clock starts too soon

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Nevadaref has previously explained, with proof, that the National Fedeation finally stated explicitly to not allow for "do-overs". They seemed rather adamant about this case, so one might be smart to listen to this; even if it seems that this is the right thing to do. However, I'm not certain that this situation falls inside the Fed's thinking in this case.

It's a timing error. This is clearly a situation to which the statement is intended to apply.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

1) Nevadaref has no definitive proof to back up his previous opinion. The FED language issued re: do-overs was not meant to cover a play like this. This play is a do-over.

Nope, not my opinion, it's a clear statement by the NFHS. It's right there in black and white in the new officials manual.

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

I searched for NV's post re: do-overs and the search function wasn't helpful for me. Oh well.

Allow me to help you locate it.
there are no provisions in the rules for "do-overs"

[BayStateRef]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

It's a timing error. This is clearly a situation to which the statement is intended to apply.

So based on the facts of this game, what would you do?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BayStateRef

So based on the facts of this game, what would you do?

On a play like this I check the clock to make sure that the timer properly waits to start it. So I would have seen it start and caught it after only a couple of seconds came off. At that point I would have sounded the whistle, which would have been well before the player touched the ball inbounds, and reset the clock to 34. Since the stoppage came DURING a throw-in that is the POI and the game is resumed with a throw-in for the same team from the same location.

JR has made a good point in the past that NFHS 4-36-1 does not specify "timing" error, but it does state correctable error. I think that the spirit and intent of the rule is for it to apply just the same. Also I have sent a comment about adding the words "or timing mistake" to my rep on the NFHS rule committee. This is a simple fix which would greatly clarify such situations.

[BayStateRef]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

On a play like this I check the clock to make sure that the timer properly waits to start it. So I would have seen it start and caught it after only a couple of seconds came off. At that point I would have sounded the whistle, which would have been well before the player touched the ball inbounds, and reset the clock to 34. Since the stoppage came DURING a throw-in that is the POI and the game is resumed with a throw-in for the same team from the same location.

That sure sounds like a do-over...which is what you pointed out the NFHS has said is not allowed.

Also...there is some doubt the whistle came during the throw-in. As the new trail, I was following the ball and the player up the court, with my hand in the air, ready to chop in time as soon as the ball is touched. My partner is about half-way between the division line and the free throw line. The only clock/scoreboard is on the scorer's table and only my partner could see it. He is not watching when the ball is touched and I am not watching the clock. I heard his whistle just as the player picked up the ball. It was close...and I could not say for sure which came first. But for now...assume the touch came first. Does that change what you would do?

Why not let the play continue and at the next dead ball add the 5 seconds that you know came off the clock improperly?

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by BayStateRef

That sure sounds like a do-over...which is what you pointed out the NFHS has said is not allowed.

A do-over would be if, after the ball had been touched and time chopped, you then realized the clock had run extra, blew your whistle, and put the entire time back on the clock and went back to the original throw-in spot.

Using POI is your only option if the ball hasn't been touched, and POI is the throw-in. It matters not where the ball is - since the throw-in hasn't ended, it is the POI.

Originally Posted by BayStateRef

But for now...assume the touch came first. Does that change what you would do?

It would me. I would blow it dead as soon as I realized the issue, use my backcourt count to determine how much time had come off after the ball was touched, take that off of the original time and reset the clock, then inbound at the point nearest the ball when I blew it dead.

In this case, POI is team control with the ball at the point the player had it, so that is why we go to the nearest point.

Originally Posted by BayStateRef

Why not let the play continue and at the next dead ball add the 5 seconds that you know came off the clock improperly?

What if the next dead ball isn't until the game is over? Best to take care of it at the time.

[BayStateRef]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

What if the next dead ball isn't until the game is over? Best to take care of it at the time.

We did that at the time. In looking back, I am wondering if there is a "better" way so that one team was not "penalized" for the timer's error.

Based on the way this game was going....I am confident there would have been another dead ball. Either the team that was behind would have made a basket (remember the "No foul" cry from the coach...he was willing to trade a basket for time off the clock) or if they missed and did not get the rebound, they would have fouled.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by BayStateRef

We did that at the time. In looking back, I am wondering if there is a "better" way so that one team was not "penalized" for the timer's error.

Based on the way this game was going....I am confident there would have been another dead ball. Either the team that was behind would have made a basket (remember the "No foul" cry from the coach...he was willing to trade a basket for time off the clock) or if they missed and did not get the rebound, they would have fouled.

Again, mistakes happen, sometimes they place teams at a disadvantage. You don't complicate that error by making a second error: ignoring the timer's mistake and waiting until later to correct it. There's no way to KNOW there will be another dead ball. Kill the play and make the correction.

[blindzebra]

This, once again, is why there needs to be a touched ball requires 3 or 4 tenths to come off the clock.

That way neither team gets screwed by the timers error.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BayStateRef

That sure sounds like a do-over...which is what you pointed out the NFHS has said is not allowed.

Gee, it is looks like a do-over, quacks like a do-over..........

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BayStateRef

I heard his whistle just as the player picked up the ball. It was close...and I could not say for sure which came first. But for now...assume the touch came first. Does that change what you would do?

Why not let the play continue and at the next dead ball add the 5 seconds that you know came off the clock improperly?

Yes, it does. Now I put the five seconds back on the clock that should not have come off, but since I don't know the exact amount that should have elapsed following the touching, I can't remove anything for that. Thus the clock is set to 34 seconds for the new throw-in, which now comes from the closest OOB spot to the location of the ball. That's 4-36-2a and 4-4-3.

PS As BktBallRef has stated, timing errors happen and that's unfortunate, but it's also part of the game. Sometimes theses mistakes favor one team, sometimes the other, sometimes both teams are hurt, sometimes neither. As an official you don't care. You just apply the proper rules.