traveling?

[footlocker]

Is it a travel if a player gains control of the ball while one knee is on the ground and one foot (the thinker position) if he lifts his knee while the foot on the other leg remains planted?

please post rule for college and nfhs...

[just another ref]

yes


NFHS:

4-44-5: A player holding the ball after gaining control while on the floor and touching with other than hand or foot, may not attempt to get up or stand.

[footlocker]

Originally Posted by just another ref

yes


NFHS:

4-44-5: A player holding the ball after gaining control while on the floor and touching with other than hand or foot, may not attempt to get up or stand.

ok is he considered to be on the floor? why can't i say the foot that is on the ground is the pivot foot? what about college?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by footlocker

ok is he considered to be on the floor? why can't i say the foot that is on the ground is the pivot foot? what about college?

Originally Posted by rule

and touching with other than hand or foot, may not attempt to get up or stand.

Yes.
Pivot foot doesn't matter if any other part of the body besides the hands or feet is touching the floor.

[Nevadaref]

While the NCAA book does not have a rule which explicitly says so, the interpretation is the same as evidenced by this approved ruling from the casebook.

Traveling

A.R. 103.

Is it traveling when a player:

37

(1) Falls to the playing court while holding the ball without maintaining
a pivot foot; or
(2) Falls to the playing court on both knees while holding the ball
without maintaining a pivot foot; or
(3) Gains control of the ball while on the playing court and then,
because of momentum, rolls or slides, after which the player passes or
starts a dribble before getting to his or her feet?

RULING: (1) and (2) Yes, because it is virtually impossible not to move the
pivot foot when falling to the playing floor.
(3) No. The player may pass, shoot, start a dribble or call a timeout. Once
the player has the ball and is no longer sliding, he or she may not roll over.
When flat on his or her back, the player may sit up without violating.
When the player puts the ball on the floor, then rises and is the first to
touch the ball, it also is traveling. When a player rises to his or her feet
while holding the ball, it is traveling. When a player falls to one knee while
holding the ball, it is traveling if the pivot foot moves.
(Rule 4-68.6 and 4-68.1)

[footlocker]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

When a player rises to his or her feet while holding the ball, it is traveling. When a player falls to one knee while
holding the ball, it is traveling if the pivot foot moves.
(Rule 4-68.6 and 4-68.1)

We are not talking about gaining control of a ball and then falling. This is a player that gains control with one knee down and one foot. That foot should be able to be the pivot foot. So if the pivot foot isn't moved (the rule says if the pivot foot moves), why can't he stand?

I'm good with the NFHS rule. It's NCAA i'm having a hard time with.

[Nevadaref]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref
When a player rises to his or her feet while holding the ball, it is traveling. When a player falls to one knee while
holding the ball, it is traveling if the pivot foot moves.
(Rule 4-68.6 and 4-68.1)

Originally Posted by footlocker

We are not talking about gaining control of a ball and then falling. This is a player that gains control with one knee down and one foot. That foot should be able to be the pivot foot. So if the pivot foot isn't moved (the rule says if the pivot foot moves), why can't he stand?

I'm good with the NFHS rule. It's NCAA i'm having a hard time with.

I know what you are inquiring about. I highlighted the relevant sentence. You quoted an additional one that has nothing to do with the situation. Just take the one sentence above by itself and you have your answer. The NFHS and the NCAA have the same take on this play. It's illegal.

You opinion doesn't matter about what he should be able to do. The NCAA committee says that he can't stand. If he does, it's a travelling violation, period. That's it.

[footlocker]

I'm not trying to inject opinion. If I am, sorry.

My question is: why would I consider A1 to be rising to his feet, when he started with a pivot foot?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by footlocker

I'm not trying to inject opinion. If I am, sorry.

My question is: why would I consider A1 to be rising to his feet, when he started with a pivot foot?

He started with one knee on the ground and one foot. When he rose to his feet, it was traveling.

[blindzebra]

Originally Posted by footlocker

I'm not trying to inject opinion. If I am, sorry.

My question is: why would I consider A1 to be rising to his feet, when he started with a pivot foot?

If they gain possession on the floor they have no pivot foot.

[footlocker]

b. When one foot is on the playing court:
1. That foot shall be the pivot foot when the other foot touches in a
step;

A.R. 110. Is it traveling when a player (a) falls to the playing court while holding the ball; or (b) gains control of the ball while on the playing court and then, because of momentum, rolls or slides, after which the player passes or starts a dribble before getting to his or her feet? RULING: In (a), yes, because it is virtually impossible not to move the pivot foot when falling to the playing floor.

this indicates that a player can maintain a pivot while being on the ground. but nothing has explicitly said that this is a travel.

[just another ref]

The part about rising to one's feet makes not mention of a pivot foot. When a player rises to his feet while holding the ball, it is traveling. Period.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by footlocker

I'm not trying to inject opinion. If I am, sorry.

My question is: why would I consider A1 to be rising to his feet, when he started with a pivot foot?

When you said that the player should be able to do such and such, I took that as your opinion.

What you have to learn is that you must follow the defined concepts when officiating. These definitions form the heart of play calling.

You are mistaken that the player "started with a pivot foot." In fact, he does not have a pivot in this situation because he is by definition deemed to be on the floor since he gained control of the ball while touching the floor with something other than a hand or foot. Blindzebra just wrote this as well.

If you look in the NCAA rulebook for how a pivot is established, you will see that it only pertains to a player who is standing upright on his feet. When a player gains control while on the floor he is governed by a specific ruling. I posted that ruling for you already in this thread. The most important point to take from that is what JAR wrote:

Originally Posted by just another ref

He started with one knee on the ground and one foot. When he rose to his feet, it was traveling.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by footlocker

b. When one foot is on the playing court:
1. That foot shall be the pivot foot when the other foot touches in a
step;

A.R. 110. Is it traveling when a player (a) falls to the playing court while holding the ball; or (b) gains control of the ball while on the playing court and then, because of momentum, rolls or slides, after which the player passes or starts a dribble before getting to his or her feet? RULING: In (a), yes, because it is virtually impossible not to move the pivot foot when falling to the playing floor.

this indicates that a player can maintain a pivot while being on the ground. but nothing has explicitly said that this is a travel.

That is if he already had established one. You are missing that point.

[footlocker]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

That is if he already had established one. You are missing that point.

okay, so then you are saying that if you have already established a pivot foot, you may go down and come up from one knee at will so long as you don't move your pivot. correct?