traveling?

[Johnny Ringo]

The play in the OP is about a player gaining control of the ball while one knee is already on the ground and one foot ...

How about this situation:

A1 catches a pass ... left foot has been established as the pivot ... for whatever reason, A1 decides to drop to one knee (his right) while left foot remains stationary ... A1 then decides to stand upright again - removing his right knee off the ground ... legal or not?

[footlocker]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

When you said that the player should be able to do such and such, I took that as your opinion.

Not debating this. Move on.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

What you have to learn is that you must follow the defined concepts when officiating. These definitions form the heart of play calling.

Thank you. You need to not worry about what you think I have to learn. Your first post stated it best. This is not explicitly covered in the rules.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Johnny Ringo

The play in the OP is about a player gaining control of the ball while one knee is already on the ground and one foot ...

How about this situation:

A1 catches a pass ... left foot has been established as the pivot ... for whatever reason, A1 decides to drop to one knee (his right) while left foot remains stationary ... A1 then decides to stand upright again - removing his right knee off the ground ... legal or not?

NFHS - Traveling.

[blindzebra]

Originally Posted by footlocker

Not debating this. Move on.



Thank you. You need to not worry about what you think I have to learn. Your first post stated it best. This is not explicitly covered in the rules.

It is explicitly covered.

A player with a knee on the floor is ON THE FLOOR!

The rule explicitly states what a player may and may not do while on the floor.

If you can't understand that simple thing, your striped shirt may be better used working at your user name than on the court.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by footlocker

okay, so then you are saying that if you have already established a pivot foot, you may go down and come up from one knee at will so long as you don't move your pivot. correct?

That is an unfortunate consequence of an NCAA ruling which Mary Struckhoff authored a few years ago. I'm specifically talking about the going to a knee WITHOUT MOVING THE PIVOT. It started out as just applicable in the NCAAW game, but has now been included on the mens side of the written documentation (rulebook and casebook).

Since that time the NCAA has published the above posted A.R. 103 as it is currently numbered. It is my understanding that the directive to the officials on the court is to follow this and call a traveling violation. The key language is the "virtually impossible not to move the pivot foot" part.

So by the strictest theoretical interpretation of the rule, a player could do what you propose without traveling, but in practice the officials have been told to deem this a violation.

I'm sure that there have been other NCAA bulletins on this in the past few years. I'll check with some of the NCAA folks that I know and see what they provide in response.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by footlocker

This is not explicitly covered in the rules.

How many freaking times does everybody have to post the very explicit freaking NCAA and NFHS rules that cover the freaking play? It's FREAKING traveling!!!!

Lah me........

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I'm sure that there have been other NCAA bulletins on this in the past few years. I'll check with some of the NCAA folks that I know and see what they provide in response.

The NCAA seems to make a distinction between "falling to the floor" (travel) and "touching the floor with other than a hand or foot" (not a travel -- assuming the pivot foot doesn't move). Both of these situations are travelling in FED.

Rising from the floor, no matter how you got there or what body parts are touching, is travelling in both FED and NCAA.

[Johnny Ringo]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Rising from the floor, no matter how you got there or what body parts are touching, is travelling in both FED and NCAA.

Well put...I think that sums it up for all of us high school callers ... of course if you dribble throughout the entire process of going to the floor and coming back up - you are fine.

[footlocker]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

So by the strictest theoretical interpretation of the rule, a player could do what you propose without traveling, but in practice the officials have been told to deem this a violation.

I'm sure that there have been other NCAA bulletins on this in the past few years. I'll check with some of the NCAA folks that I know and see what they provide in response.

Thanks Nevadaref. We are doing the same thing in my conference. This is a question that came up a couple weeks ago at a NAIA Tournament I was working. The crew going onto the floor brought it up to my crew after we finished our game. My first instinct was traveling, so I got into the NCAA rulebook and casebook 2007 & 2008. After recognizing what you posted I decided to see what this forum could provide. (I think this forum is great for officials to discuss situations and interpretations.)

Other NCAA guys from our conference that work all over D1 upto and including WNBA interpret the rule that a player can go down to a knee and rise so long as the pivot isn't moved. But I wanted to know about starting in that position. It seems that starting in that position would be different than going to one knee. NFHS is easy on this one.

Thanks again and let me know if you come up with anything on your end.

[footlocker]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

The NCAA seems to make a distinction between "falling to the floor" (travel) and "touching the floor with other than a hand or foot" (not a travel -- assuming the pivot foot doesn't move). Both of these situations are travelling in FED.

Rising from the floor, no matter how you got there or what body parts are touching, is travelling in both FED and NCAA.

Thanks Bob.

I think that is the conclusion that I have come to as well.