What do you think about this?

[tomegun]

I had a game last night and got to the gym early to watch the consolation games. Remember, I have been in my current association for 1.5 seasons. During one game I saw an official call traveling from the C on a play that was right inside the lane in front of the Lead. The Lead had a whistle too. On another play, this same official was at the Lead and a drive happened from the C's primary to the rim at approximately a 45 degree angle. You know, a normal drive to the hoop. The Lead had a foul on this play.
I know a little so we talked about these plays and a couple others after the game.

What do you think of these plays?

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by tomegun

During one game I saw an official call traveling from the C on a play that was right inside the lane in front of the Lead. The Lead had a whistle too. On another play, this same official was at the Lead and a drive happened from the C's primary to the rim at approximately a 45 degree angle. You know, a normal drive to the hoop. The Lead had a foul on this play.

On the traveling: I know others will disagree, but this is one of the calls that I've pregamed with many of my partners that is easier to get from a distance - and the one you've described is a great example. A C looking through his primary may see that travel easily, whereas L from a closer position may not. So, I'd have to see it, but generally I don't have a problem with this. However, if both have a whistle, let L have it.

As for the foul - again I'd have a very patient whistle as L, but there may be things you see that C can't, and sometimes you have to get that one...

JMO, and I'm sure others will disagree.

[26 Year Gap]

Be late, be needed & be right.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by tomegun

What do you think of these plays?

Were they the right calls? What else was going on in C's / L's area? Did the L start to rotate (or was late to rotate) on the drive?

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Were they the right calls? What else was going on in C's / L's area? Did the L start to rotate (or was late to rotate) on the drive?

And was the foul called on the primary or a secondary defender? Inquiring minds want to know these things!

As for the travel, I would rather those calls came from the outside official on most plays.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by tomegun

During one game I saw an official call traveling from the C on a play that was right inside the lane in front of the Lead. The Lead had a whistle too.

I can see a call coming from the C in this situation. You said it was in the lane and based on what else was going on, he might have had a great look at this play. And if the Lead had a whistle, that just helps justify how good the call was.

Originally Posted by tomegun

On another play, this same official was at the Lead and a drive happened from the C's primary to the rim at approximately a 45 degree angle. You know, a normal drive to the hoop. The Lead had a foul on this play.

The question I would have is did the Lead call the foul on a secondary defender. Meaning, a player that did not necessarily come from the C's primary. Sometimes the lead has to come and get those calls if someone is helping on defense and smacks the shooter. I see what you are suggesting, but there just is not enough information to really say if this was a good or bad thing.

Peace

[Nevadaref]

I think that someone is ballwatching.

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Were they the right calls? What else was going on in C's / L's area? Did the L start to rotate (or was late to rotate) on the drive?

On the travel, the C had to look past/between at least 4 players. The way the play developed the Lead was not right up on the play and he had a whistle. Yes, I have talked about traveling in front of the Lead in pregame and it always involves the Trail helping out. It just isn't normal for the C to have a clear view of a traveling play in front of the Lead.

On the drive, the Lead was not rotating - the Lead was ball watching. Again, he had to look past at least 4 players closer to him. There are plays where the Lead is forced to call across the paint: plays where the C physically cannot see contact or non-basketball plays. I am of the strong opinion that when a drive comes from the C on an angle this is the C's play. When the Lead constantly makes these calls it negates the reason for the C in the first place.

I think there are certain fundamentals involved with having three officials - primary areas of coverage. Coming out of those areas should be done for a specific reason. IMO, a double whistle that is clearly in a primary area, especially between the Lead and C, is not a good double whistle. Is it a coincident that officials normally have a reason for looking past matchups to make a call out of their primary? I think not. It is called ball-watching.

BTW, the official I talked to last night is known for watching the ball and calling all over the court. He will rationalize it every time, but I have looked in his eyes during games and he watches the ball.

I know (personally) of zero officials who advocate calling all over the court. Sure, I've heard many officials say they don't mind someone making a call right in front of them, but when we hit the court it just doesn't happen that way.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by tomegun

...the Lead was ball watching.
...
It is called ball-watching.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by tomegun

On the travel, the C had to look past/between at least 4 players. The way the play developed the Lead was not right up on the play and he had a whistle. Yes, I have talked about traveling in front of the Lead in pregame and it always involves the Trail helping out. It just isn't normal for the C to have a clear view of a traveling play in front of the Lead.

On the drive, the Lead was not rotating - the Lead was ball watching. Again, he had to look past at least 4 players closer to him. There are plays where the Lead is forced to call across the paint: plays where the C physically cannot see contact or non-basketball plays. I am of the strong opinion that when a drive comes from the C on an angle this is the C's play. When the Lead constantly makes these calls it negates the reason for the C in the first place.

I think there are certain fundamentals involved with having three officials - primary areas of coverage. Coming out of those areas should be done for a specific reason. IMO, a double whistle that is clearly in a primary area, especially between the Lead and C, is not a good double whistle. Is it a coincident that officials normally have a reason for looking past matchups to make a call out of their primary? I think not. It is called ball-watching.

BTW, the official I talked to last night is known for watching the ball and calling all over the court. He will rationalize it every time, but I have looked in his eyes during games and he watches the ball.

I know (personally) of zero officials who advocate calling all over the court. Sure, I've heard many officials say they don't mind someone making a call right in front of them, but when we hit the court it just doesn't happen that way.

Those are much better descriptions. I do not know if I would have ever seen any of those plays based on what you have just described.

Peace

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I think that someone is ballwatching.

We have a winner!

Rocky and Rut, the foul call was not on a secondary defender. Also, I have no problem with the outside official calling traveling, but more times than not that official will be the Trail, especially in the play that happened last night.

On the travel call, I was standing by my partner and we both turned our heads on a swivel and looked at the C. We looked at each other and asked why he had a whistle at all. Let me clarify a little bit. This play was not an overload and the Lead was not right on top of the play. The Lead didn't hesitate to call traveling.

This crew was very inconsistent overall. Calling fouls/violations all over the court and not calling the obvious in their primaries. I would hope we can all agree that fundamentally staying in your primary will result in more correct calls and a more consistant game. Can't we?

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Those are much better descriptions. I do not know if I would have ever seen any of those plays based on what you have just described.

Peace

Sorry for not being more descriptive.

BTW, I work with this guy on Friday. He basically knows what to expect in my pregame and I will not deviate on bit.

Let's shift gears a bit. Let's say you have a double whistle that is clearly in your primary. What would you do? I know what I do, but I would like to hear others' thoughts.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by tomegun

Let's shift gears a bit. Let's say you have a double whistle that is clearly in your primary. What would you do? I know what I do, but I would like to hear others' thoughts.

errr.....I would take the call to the table. Trick question?

What would you do? Wait until the half to kick his azz or take care of it right there on the floor?

[Adam]

I was working a 3-man (I mean that literally) varsity game; one partner is rather old and is known for not moving well. I was C, and we had a double whistle in my primary. He was T and not yet across midcourt. I let him take it.

Shortly after that, our other partner (one of our top officials) came and told me next time he called something like that from that far, take it away from him.

I guess that's how it should be handled here, anyway.

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

errr.....I would take the call to the table. Trick question?

What would you do? Wait until the half to kick his azz or take care of it right there on the floor?

Not a trick question. I mean, would you make eye contact, say something to your partner or just take it to the table?