What do you think about this?

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I was working a 3-man (I mean that literally) varsity game; one partner is rather old and is known for not moving well. I was C, and we had a double whistle in my primary. He was T and not yet across midcourt. I let him take it.

Shortly after that, our other partner (one of our top officials) came and told me next time he called something like that from that far, take it away from him.

I guess that's how it should be handled here, anyway.

OK, here is my thought: you wouldn't be taking anything away from him because it was in your primary. There are so many times when a double whistle in your (in general terms) primary is BS to begin with. When that occurs and I'm relatively certain we have the same thing, there is no eye contact because I'm taking it to the table - straight to the table.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by tomegun

Not a trick question. I mean, would you make eye contact, say something to your partner or just take it to the table?

Why should I say something? He's getting as much money as I am, let him blow what he sees. Maybe he's right...if not or if we agree I'm taking the call.

I always make eye contact on a double whistle btw.

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

Why should I say something? He's getting as much money as I am, let him blow what he sees. Maybe he's right...if not or if we agree I'm taking the call.

I always make eye contact on a double whistle btw.

OK, maybe my mentality has been formed from many camps and hearing many officials speak. I've been told to know where your partners are and have a good idea of what they called. If a play is clearly in my primary and I'm sure that they have the same thing there is no eye contact necessary. Unless we are talking about secondary defenders, which I wasn't talking about initially, I would like to think I'm a big boy and can handle mine. I'm not really talking about anything big that I would get pissy about, I'm just talking about a routine play, clearly in my area with a double whistle. Maybe I'm living in a ArizonaLasVegasWashingtonDCMarylandNorthernVirgini aMississippi bubble and this only happens to me. If so, boy do I envy you guys since you don't have to deal with this on a regular basis.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by tomegun

Sorry for not being more descriptive.

BTW, I work with this guy on Friday. He basically knows what to expect in my pregame and I will not deviate on bit.

Let's shift gears a bit. Let's say you have a double whistle that is clearly in your primary. What would you do? I know what I do, but I would like to hear others' thoughts.

Usually a double whistle that I have made that is not in my defined area, I would let the official that has the ball in their area take the call. That is if I clearly did not have something different from my partner. That does not happen very often, so it is not much of an issue for me. But there are calls in dual areas that double whistles are appropriate and are not so unusual. I do see where you are going with this. I guess I am wondering why you are so surprised by what other officials do. You said this was a HS game and frankly many HS official in areas that do not work a lot of three-person have that kind of problem.

Peace

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by tomegun

OK, maybe my mentality has been formed from many camps and hearing many officials speak. I've been told to know where your partners are and have a good idea of what they called. If a play is clearly in my primary and I'm sure that they have the same thing there is no eye contact necessary. Unless we are talking about secondary defenders, which I wasn't talking about initially, I would like to think I'm a big boy and can handle mine. I'm not really talking about anything big that I would get pissy about, I'm just talking about a routine play, clearly in my area with a double whistle. Maybe I'm living in a ArizonaLasVegasWashingtonDCMarylandNorthernVirgini aMississippi bubble and this only happens to me. If so, boy do I envy you guys since you don't have to deal with this on a regular basis.

Not sure what it is I don't have to live with that you do but all I know is if mine isn't the only whistle then I need to make sure the crew is on the same page. If we disagree I know how to deal with it. Every once in a while it does happen.

Bottom line: you want to blow in my area then have a good reason. I'll trust you to do that. If you're poaching then we'll figure out why. But I don't take it personally.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by tomegun

OK, maybe my mentality has been formed from many camps and hearing many officials speak. I've been told to know where your partners are and have a good idea of what they called. If a play is clearly in my primary and I'm sure that they have the same thing there is no eye contact necessary. Unless we are talking about secondary defenders, which I wasn't talking about initially, I would like to think I'm a big boy and can handle mine. I'm not really talking about anything big that I would get pissy about, I'm just talking about a routine play, clearly in my area with a double whistle. Maybe I'm living in a ArizonaLasVegasWashingtonDCMarylandNorthernVirgini aMississippi bubble and this only happens to me. If so, boy do I envy you guys since you don't have to deal with this on a regular basis.

I have grown to love double whistles. Part of the reason it adds to the credibility of the calls and the officials on the calls. And that has been taught to me at camps several times. That being said, usually double whistles come in the middle of the court near the lane or above the circle. And considering my state has had three-person mechanics for all playoff games since 97-98 and that does not include regular season and tournament games, many officials have been indoctrinated in the system for a long time now. I do not work with many ball-watchers anymore. I also tend to work with a lot of experienced officials that work college ball or have been working post season games for some time. The major issue is not calling out of someone's area where I live. It might be about getting a call right, but not calling out of someone's area.

Peace

[tomegun]

Gentlemen, I think you both have good points that I agree with. I like the comment about poaching; I don't take it personally either, I don't even really talk about it other than on here. I also like how Rut described good double whistles that can be used to validate calls versus other double whistles which do not/should not happen very often.

Good stuff. I'm in an area where guys call the game and unfortunately go their separate ways. I only really get to talk about this stuff on here.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by tomegun

On the travel, the C had to look past/between at least 4 players. The way the play developed the Lead was not right up on the play and he had a whistle. Yes, I have talked about traveling in front of the Lead in pregame and it always involves the Trail helping out. It just isn't normal for the C to have a clear view of a traveling play in front of the Lead.

On the drive, the Lead was not rotating - the Lead was ball watching. Again, he had to look past at least 4 players closer to him. There are plays where the Lead is forced to call across the paint: plays where the C physically cannot see contact or non-basketball plays. I am of the strong opinion that when a drive comes from the C on an angle this is the C's play. When the Lead constantly makes these calls it negates the reason for the C in the first place.

Chiming in late here, but thanks for the description.

On the foul call, definitely sounds like ball-watching. The travel just isn't as clear-cut to me...if players in his primary were around the lane, his angle certainly could also give him a look right at the play. Not something he should be looking for, but could be something he sees. It happens. Not a big deal and it sounds like he got the call right, even if he shouldn't have had it.

I just don't see it as that big a deal in and of itself. You did say he has a rep for ball-watching, though, so it probably becomes another "question" after the game if I'm working with him.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by tomegun

Not a trick question. I mean, would you make eye contact, say something to your partner or just take it to the table?

Depends...how's that for a definitive answer? There are times when I just take it to the table because it's obvious who it was on and we don't need to communicate. There are times when I tell my partner to take it or I say "I've got it" due to who had the last few calls, etc. There are times when I hurriedly sell the crap out of what I am calling before the partner can because I'm not sure what he/she has and know what I have. There are times when I give him/her the big "stink-eye" look for even having a whistle on that play in the first place. (OK, honesty time here - I'm usually the one GETTING the stink-eye). It really depends on the game situation.

And as for the original post, the guy's a ball-watcher. Pre-game it all you want, but be prepared for him to call stuff right in front of you.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by tomegun

Not a trick question. I mean, would you make eye contact, say something to your partner or just take it to the table?

We will stop, look at each other, and let the official whose primary it's in take it to the table. If there's any doubt, we'll verbally make sure we have the same thing. If not, we're going to come together and figure out what happened first.

I had my regular partner pissed at me for taking one of his calls. I was the L and he was the C and a drive started from his area after I closed down but before I could rotate across.

Of course, the defender was secondary and the call was obvious, but he still wanted the call and we agreed to disagree on that one. He yielded to me, but mainly because I didn't even see that as being his (even though he did have a whistle) and came out selling the block. I'm glad I did, because he was coming in with a PC foul and it would've been a horrible call, trust me. I watched the secondary defender slide in under the airborne shooter. I told him that and he said he didn't care what the call was, just about whose call it should be.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

He yielded to me, but mainly because I didn't even see that as being his (even though he did have a whistle) and came out selling the block. I'm glad I did, because he was coming in with a PC foul and it would've been a horrible call, trust me. I watched the secondary defender slide in under the airborne shooter. I told him that and he said he didn't care what the call was, just about whose call it should be.

Yikes. Get the call right and worry about the details later. It is a matter of priorities.

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

Not a big deal and it sounds like he got the call right, even if he shouldn't have had it.

This is my opinion of this post: it rationalizes ball-watching and virtually gives license for an official to continue doing this. I guess it is hard to accurately describe the travel play, but it was directly inside the lane opposite where the C was. It also wasn't an overload and the C had to look past at least two competitive matchups to call this. I don't even remember if one of the players he looked past were moving to become secondary defenders, but it is a possibility and he would have been clueless. Let's think about this people, he called traveling which means he didn't just have awareness of where the ball was he was focusing on the ball. The play started outside the lane on the other side of the court and the travel occured right inside the lane. So it isn't a big deal to focus on a play that started on the opposite side of the court when you have matchups in your primary? Like Rocy said, he is a ball-watcher plain and simple.

I will pregame like I normally do and stress what I normally stress. He knows its coming and I know its coming. It is up to him to do what he feels is best for the game. BTW, this is one of those officials who complains about not getting playoff games, etc. I wonder why.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by tomegun

This is my opinion of this post: it rationalizes ball-watching and virtually gives license for an official to continue doing this. I guess it is hard to accurately describe the travel play, but it was directly inside the lane opposite where the C was. It also wasn't an overload and the C had to look past at least two competitive matchups to call this. I don't even remember if one of the players he looked past were moving to become secondary defenders, but it is a possibility and he would have been clueless. Let's think about this people, he called traveling which means he didn't just have awareness of where the ball was he was focusing on the ball. The play started outside the lane on the other side of the court and the travel occured right inside the lane. So it isn't a big deal to focus on a play that started on the opposite side of the court when you have matchups in your primary? Like Rocy said, he is a ball-watcher plain and simple.

I will pregame like I normally do and stress what I normally stress. He knows its coming and I know its coming. It is up to him to do what he feels is best for the game. BTW, this is one of those officials who complains about not getting playoff games, etc. I wonder why.

I have no problems with the C getting something on the far side of the lane -- I mean, a C has angles that the trail and the lead do not. But this usually involves a bump or a foul from a backside angle the trail/lead may not have the best view of.

But traveling? Supposing the L doesn't get this, why not the T?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Yikes. Get the call right and worry about the details later. It is a matter of priorities.

I agree, although I should've been looking at him to make sure we didn't have a blarge. We didn't, because I sold it so hard he didn't have a chance to do anything but put a fist up and bring it down.

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

I have no problems with the C getting something on the far side of the lane -- I mean, a C has angles that the trail and the lead do not. But this usually involves a bump or a foul from a backside angle the trail/lead may not have the best view of.

But traveling? Supposing the L doesn't get this, why not the T?

It takes time to understand on the fly what plays can be seen by certain officials, but this is a valuable skill to catch some plays in certain situations. However, in this play the Lead had the traveling and the C mysteriously looked past matchups to "catch" this call on-ball.

You might not have a problem with this, but I will continue to say that unless this is a non-basketball play a double whistle between the Lead and the C in this location is not a good double whistle. We can say yada yada yada, fluff fluff fluff all day long, but it is basic ball-watching.