What do you think about this?

[tomegun]

I had a game last night and got to the gym early to watch the consolation games. Remember, I have been in my current association for 1.5 seasons. During one game I saw an official call traveling from the C on a play that was right inside the lane in front of the Lead. The Lead had a whistle too. On another play, this same official was at the Lead and a drive happened from the C's primary to the rim at approximately a 45 degree angle. You know, a normal drive to the hoop. The Lead had a foul on this play.
I know a little so we talked about these plays and a couple others after the game.

What do you think of these plays?

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by tomegun

During one game I saw an official call traveling from the C on a play that was right inside the lane in front of the Lead. The Lead had a whistle too. On another play, this same official was at the Lead and a drive happened from the C's primary to the rim at approximately a 45 degree angle. You know, a normal drive to the hoop. The Lead had a foul on this play.

On the traveling: I know others will disagree, but this is one of the calls that I've pregamed with many of my partners that is easier to get from a distance - and the one you've described is a great example. A C looking through his primary may see that travel easily, whereas L from a closer position may not. So, I'd have to see it, but generally I don't have a problem with this. However, if both have a whistle, let L have it.

As for the foul - again I'd have a very patient whistle as L, but there may be things you see that C can't, and sometimes you have to get that one...

JMO, and I'm sure others will disagree.

[26 Year Gap]

Be late, be needed & be right.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by tomegun

What do you think of these plays?

Were they the right calls? What else was going on in C's / L's area? Did the L start to rotate (or was late to rotate) on the drive?

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Were they the right calls? What else was going on in C's / L's area? Did the L start to rotate (or was late to rotate) on the drive?

And was the foul called on the primary or a secondary defender? Inquiring minds want to know these things!

As for the travel, I would rather those calls came from the outside official on most plays.

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Were they the right calls? What else was going on in C's / L's area? Did the L start to rotate (or was late to rotate) on the drive?

On the travel, the C had to look past/between at least 4 players. The way the play developed the Lead was not right up on the play and he had a whistle. Yes, I have talked about traveling in front of the Lead in pregame and it always involves the Trail helping out. It just isn't normal for the C to have a clear view of a traveling play in front of the Lead.

On the drive, the Lead was not rotating - the Lead was ball watching. Again, he had to look past at least 4 players closer to him. There are plays where the Lead is forced to call across the paint: plays where the C physically cannot see contact or non-basketball plays. I am of the strong opinion that when a drive comes from the C on an angle this is the C's play. When the Lead constantly makes these calls it negates the reason for the C in the first place.

I think there are certain fundamentals involved with having three officials - primary areas of coverage. Coming out of those areas should be done for a specific reason. IMO, a double whistle that is clearly in a primary area, especially between the Lead and C, is not a good double whistle. Is it a coincident that officials normally have a reason for looking past matchups to make a call out of their primary? I think not. It is called ball-watching.

BTW, the official I talked to last night is known for watching the ball and calling all over the court. He will rationalize it every time, but I have looked in his eyes during games and he watches the ball.

I know (personally) of zero officials who advocate calling all over the court. Sure, I've heard many officials say they don't mind someone making a call right in front of them, but when we hit the court it just doesn't happen that way.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by tomegun

...the Lead was ball watching.
...
It is called ball-watching.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by tomegun

On the travel, the C had to look past/between at least 4 players. The way the play developed the Lead was not right up on the play and he had a whistle. Yes, I have talked about traveling in front of the Lead in pregame and it always involves the Trail helping out. It just isn't normal for the C to have a clear view of a traveling play in front of the Lead.

On the drive, the Lead was not rotating - the Lead was ball watching. Again, he had to look past at least 4 players closer to him. There are plays where the Lead is forced to call across the paint: plays where the C physically cannot see contact or non-basketball plays. I am of the strong opinion that when a drive comes from the C on an angle this is the C's play. When the Lead constantly makes these calls it negates the reason for the C in the first place.

I think there are certain fundamentals involved with having three officials - primary areas of coverage. Coming out of those areas should be done for a specific reason. IMO, a double whistle that is clearly in a primary area, especially between the Lead and C, is not a good double whistle. Is it a coincident that officials normally have a reason for looking past matchups to make a call out of their primary? I think not. It is called ball-watching.

BTW, the official I talked to last night is known for watching the ball and calling all over the court. He will rationalize it every time, but I have looked in his eyes during games and he watches the ball.

I know (personally) of zero officials who advocate calling all over the court. Sure, I've heard many officials say they don't mind someone making a call right in front of them, but when we hit the court it just doesn't happen that way.

Those are much better descriptions. I do not know if I would have ever seen any of those plays based on what you have just described.

Peace

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Those are much better descriptions. I do not know if I would have ever seen any of those plays based on what you have just described.

Peace

Sorry for not being more descriptive.

BTW, I work with this guy on Friday. He basically knows what to expect in my pregame and I will not deviate on bit.

Let's shift gears a bit. Let's say you have a double whistle that is clearly in your primary. What would you do? I know what I do, but I would like to hear others' thoughts.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by tomegun

Let's shift gears a bit. Let's say you have a double whistle that is clearly in your primary. What would you do? I know what I do, but I would like to hear others' thoughts.

errr.....I would take the call to the table. Trick question?

What would you do? Wait until the half to kick his azz or take care of it right there on the floor?

[Adam]

I was working a 3-man (I mean that literally) varsity game; one partner is rather old and is known for not moving well. I was C, and we had a double whistle in my primary. He was T and not yet across midcourt. I let him take it.

Shortly after that, our other partner (one of our top officials) came and told me next time he called something like that from that far, take it away from him.

I guess that's how it should be handled here, anyway.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by tomegun

Sorry for not being more descriptive.

BTW, I work with this guy on Friday. He basically knows what to expect in my pregame and I will not deviate on bit.

Let's shift gears a bit. Let's say you have a double whistle that is clearly in your primary. What would you do? I know what I do, but I would like to hear others' thoughts.

Usually a double whistle that I have made that is not in my defined area, I would let the official that has the ball in their area take the call. That is if I clearly did not have something different from my partner. That does not happen very often, so it is not much of an issue for me. But there are calls in dual areas that double whistles are appropriate and are not so unusual. I do see where you are going with this. I guess I am wondering why you are so surprised by what other officials do. You said this was a HS game and frankly many HS official in areas that do not work a lot of three-person have that kind of problem.

Peace

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by tomegun

On the travel, the C had to look past/between at least 4 players. The way the play developed the Lead was not right up on the play and he had a whistle. Yes, I have talked about traveling in front of the Lead in pregame and it always involves the Trail helping out. It just isn't normal for the C to have a clear view of a traveling play in front of the Lead.

On the drive, the Lead was not rotating - the Lead was ball watching. Again, he had to look past at least 4 players closer to him. There are plays where the Lead is forced to call across the paint: plays where the C physically cannot see contact or non-basketball plays. I am of the strong opinion that when a drive comes from the C on an angle this is the C's play. When the Lead constantly makes these calls it negates the reason for the C in the first place.

Chiming in late here, but thanks for the description.

On the foul call, definitely sounds like ball-watching. The travel just isn't as clear-cut to me...if players in his primary were around the lane, his angle certainly could also give him a look right at the play. Not something he should be looking for, but could be something he sees. It happens. Not a big deal and it sounds like he got the call right, even if he shouldn't have had it.

I just don't see it as that big a deal in and of itself. You did say he has a rep for ball-watching, though, so it probably becomes another "question" after the game if I'm working with him.

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

Not a big deal and it sounds like he got the call right, even if he shouldn't have had it.

This is my opinion of this post: it rationalizes ball-watching and virtually gives license for an official to continue doing this. I guess it is hard to accurately describe the travel play, but it was directly inside the lane opposite where the C was. It also wasn't an overload and the C had to look past at least two competitive matchups to call this. I don't even remember if one of the players he looked past were moving to become secondary defenders, but it is a possibility and he would have been clueless. Let's think about this people, he called traveling which means he didn't just have awareness of where the ball was he was focusing on the ball. The play started outside the lane on the other side of the court and the travel occured right inside the lane. So it isn't a big deal to focus on a play that started on the opposite side of the court when you have matchups in your primary? Like Rocy said, he is a ball-watcher plain and simple.

I will pregame like I normally do and stress what I normally stress. He knows its coming and I know its coming. It is up to him to do what he feels is best for the game. BTW, this is one of those officials who complains about not getting playoff games, etc. I wonder why.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by tomegun

This is my opinion of this post: it rationalizes ball-watching and virtually gives license for an official to continue doing this. I guess it is hard to accurately describe the travel play, but it was directly inside the lane opposite where the C was. It also wasn't an overload and the C had to look past at least two competitive matchups to call this. I don't even remember if one of the players he looked past were moving to become secondary defenders, but it is a possibility and he would have been clueless. Let's think about this people, he called traveling which means he didn't just have awareness of where the ball was he was focusing on the ball. The play started outside the lane on the other side of the court and the travel occured right inside the lane. So it isn't a big deal to focus on a play that started on the opposite side of the court when you have matchups in your primary? Like Rocy said, he is a ball-watcher plain and simple.

I will pregame like I normally do and stress what I normally stress. He knows its coming and I know its coming. It is up to him to do what he feels is best for the game. BTW, this is one of those officials who complains about not getting playoff games, etc. I wonder why.

I have no problems with the C getting something on the far side of the lane -- I mean, a C has angles that the trail and the lead do not. But this usually involves a bump or a foul from a backside angle the trail/lead may not have the best view of.

But traveling? Supposing the L doesn't get this, why not the T?