Woman Coaching Boys V

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

And a lot of other subjects too imo.........

...yup, I know that's your opinion. And you know mine. Just because you're basically a nice guy with the best intentions, doesn't mean everyone is. And since you are basically a nice guy, you seem to assume that those of us who are a little touchy are the ones with the problems. That our offendednesses are inappropriate. It's easy to say, "Life isn't long enough to spend time worrying about them." It's really, really hard to do it. Just because we seem to be paranoid, and just because you're not out to get us, doesn't mean that THEY're not.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I usually assume they don't get enough sleep, don't eat breakfast regularly, or haven't had sex in a while.

I sleep well and I always eat a good breakfast.

Just saying........

[Scrapper1]

I'm going to comment on this and then I'm going to try to disengage from this thread because these race/gender discussions never end well. I don't want to contribute to a perceived or real flame war. So here goes.

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Scrappy, I took that joke as offensive, too, and not as humor. Your explanation (below) makes no sense to me. I don't think that BITS statement was the joke, he was just stating a fact. There's a sophomore boys team, and the coach is female.

The fact that anyone could be offended at Bits's comment is mind-boggling to me. Let's suppose that it was not intended to be humorous. Here's the post in a nutshell:

1. A bunch of 15-year-old boys are being coached by a woman.
2. That's not nice.
3. Oops, I didn't realize #1 was a serious statement.

First of all, assuming that it's NOT meant to be humorous, it doesn't make any sense at all. It's not insulting, it's not derogatory. It's non-sensical. What is the purpose of "that's not nice"? Even if you thought it was inappropriate for a woman to coach high school boys, would anyone say that it wasn't "nice"? Even if you would say it's not "nice", how is that offensive?!?!?!

Second, assuming it's not meant to be humorous, the comments are apparently incredibly offensive to women. Are we to conclude that Bits is a misogynist? I really, really hope not.

The only way the post makes any sense is for there to be some sort of wordplay. The thing that's "not nice" is calling someone a "sophomore coach"; but as I pointed out in my last post, that doesn't have ANYTHING to do with the gender of the coach.

Anyone offended by Bits's sophomoric humor is simply trying way too hard to be offended. I'm sorry if it sounds like I'm blasting you, personally, it's not intended that way. But the statement is true.

And finally, even assuming that Bits hates all women, it is still wildly ironic that Rita chose to berate the entire male gender while being offended that Bits was berating the entire female gender. That's what really pissed me off about her post.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

I'm going to comment on this and then I'm going to try to disengage from this thread because these race/gender discussions never end well. I don't want to contribute to a perceived or real flame war. So here goes.

The fact that anyone could be offended at Bits's comment is mind-boggling to me. Let's suppose that it was not intended to be humorous. Here's the post in a nutshell:

1. A bunch of 15-year-old boys are being coached by a woman.

BITS' comments ended here. I know very well that BITS isn't "part of the problem". And I don't think that Rita was offended by BITS' comment.

Mark's "joke" was, as you point out, non-sensical, but I understand how it could be perceived as offensive to women. I still don't get the joke, but I get how it might be offensive.

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Second, assuming it's not meant to be humorous, the comments are apparently incredibly offensive to women. Are we to conclude that Bits is a misogynist? I really, really hope not.

The only way the post makes any sense is for there to be some sort of wordplay. The thing that's "not nice" is calling someone a "sophomore coach"; but as I pointed out in my last post, that doesn't have ANYTHING to do with the gender of the coach.

Anyone offended by Bits's sophomoric humor is simply trying way too hard to be offended. I'm sorry if it sounds like I'm blasting you, personally, it's not intended that way. But the statement is true.

You're making a lot of assumptions here, and not checking things out.

Rita wasn't generalizing about men. She was simply surprised that no forum people thought Mark's joke was sexist. She also commented on some other comments that were sort of throw-offs in this thread about women. Ya gotta admit, there is a little bit of sexism in there.

Scrappy, you are (like JR) a nice guy, but you don't see how tough it can get for the non-majority when dealing with the not-nice-folks. It's easy to get paranoid, and it's difficult to be able to pick out the good guys from the bad, sometimes. Rita just hasn't been around here long enough to know which are whom.

And I still don't get the sophomore/woman/language thing. Perhaps you could explain it?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

And finally, even assuming that Bits hates all women, it is still wildly ironic that Rita chose to berate the entire male gender while being offended that Bits was berating the entire female gender. That's what really pissed me off about her post.

I'm still trying to figure out why Rita assumed that BITS or some of the other posters actually are males. I can't find anything in their posts that positively identify them as such. I find that incredibly sexist.

Yup, it's been a hoot but this one really should die.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

I'm going to comment on this and then I'm going to try to disengage from this thread because these race/gender discussions never end well. I don't want to contribute to a perceived or real flame war. So here goes.

So far, it doesn't look or feel like a flame war to me. And I think this kind of discussion can be very useful and could even end well, if we can keep it to a discussion, and not let ourselves get out on a limb.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

It's easy to get paranoid, and it's difficult to be able to pick out the good guys from the bad, sometimes.

But you still shouldn't lump the good guys in with the bad guys until you do pick out which is which though.

That's one of the points that Scrappy was trying to get across, methinks.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Think about it. Wasn't it ....gasp....sexist on your part to assume that I'm a male just because I get a tad cranky every now and then?

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

I'm still trying to figure out why Rita assumed that BITS or some of the other posters actually are males. I can't find anything in their posts that positively identify them as such. I find that incredibly sexist.

Yup, it's been a hoot but this one really should die.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

So........ to sum up.......you're happy but tired.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

And a lot of other subjects too imo......

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

I sleep well and I always eat a good breakfast.
Just saying.......

You're awfully happy this morning. Maybe a little more than just eating and sleeping....

Just saying...

[Scrapper1]

So much for leaving the thread. . .

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Rita wasn't generalizing about men. She was simply surprised that no forum people thought Mark's joke was sexist.

That is completely and utterly false. You can see how Mark's joke was offensive (I'm sorry for thinking it was Bits's joke) but you can't see that Rita insulted every man on this forum?!?!?! She wasn't surprised at all. She was BETTING on the fact that we stupid insensitive walking penises couldn't understand why some joke was so obviously offensive to women everywhere!!!

There is CLEARLY no offense intended in Mark's joke and there is CLEARLY offensive condescension in Rita's post; yet she gets to make her comments without expecting to get called on it.

The difference is that I don't care if she thinks I (or all men) am a walking brainless penis. The thing that bothers me is the fact that she uses the very technique that she is claiming to be offended by.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

So much for leaving the thread. . .

That is completely and utterly false. You can see how Mark's joke was offensive (I'm sorry for thinking it was Bits's joke) but you can't see that Rita insulted every man on this forum?!?!?! She wasn't surprised at all. She was BETTING on the fact that we stupid insensitive walking penises couldn't understand why some joke was so obviously offensive to women everywhere!!!

There is CLEARLY no offense intended in Mark's joke and there is CLEARLY offensive condescension in Rita's post; yet she gets to make her comments without expecting to get called on it.

The difference is that I don't care if she thinks I (or all men) am a walking brainless penis. The thing that bothers me is the fact that she uses the very technique that she is claiming to be offended by.

Rita said "you all" and "readers," she never said men or penises.

There isn't CLEARLY no offense intended in Mark's joke. It's just not that clear, Scrappy. I know Mark pretty well, and I dont' feel the joke is clear at all. So how could it possibly be clear to Rita?

Rita was very blunt about her opinion, but I dont' think she's lumping all men together. She might very well have been surprised that it didn't offend me, too. COnsidering that I'm on this board every day and she had to know that I saw it. Maybe that surprise and accusation was against me too?

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

BITS' comments ended here. I know very well that BITS isn't "part of the problem". And I don't think that Rita was offended by BITS' comment.

HEY, back off! You're messing up my 15 minutes of fame.

For the record, I am quite the misogynist. In fact, my wife thinks I give fantastic misogges. It's part of why I'm not cranky despite the lack of sleep and having missed breakfast. I'm just saying...

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Mark's "joke" was, as you point out, non-sensical, but I understand how it could be perceived as offensive to women. I still don't get the joke, but I get how it might be offensive.

Hmmm, this seems like a really good time for a "patient whistle." You don't understand the statement, but you "get" how you could take offense at it? Wouldn't going off in this situation be arguing from ignorance? It is true that just because you're paranoid doesn't mean "they" are not out to get you, but realizing that you are paranoid should lead you to be more careful about the conclusions you come to, lest you allow your paranoia to lead you to false conclusions.

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Rita wasn't generalizing about men. She was simply surprised that no forum people thought Mark's joke was sexist.

Mark makes a hundred off-hand, silly, out there, or otherwise off the wall comments every week. He, and his comments, are part of the furniture around here. To comment on them all, would just encourage him . Besides, let me tell you a little secret...sometimes we of the oppressive gender don't always understand them either. And we have a genetic flaw that prevents us asking for an explanation.

Originally Posted by rainmaker

She also commented on some other comments that were sort of throw-offs in this thread about women. Ya gotta admit, there is a little bit of sexism in there.

Scrappy, you are (like JR) a nice guy, but you don't see how tough it can get for the non-majority when dealing with the not-nice-folks. It's easy to get paranoid, and it's difficult to be able to pick out the good guys from the bad, sometimes. Rita just hasn't been around here long enough to know which are whom.

You've been here a very long time. Stay here long enough and you'll be exposed to sexism, stoopid monkey-ism, old school-ism, fan boy-ism, and lots of other -isms. We're referees, which means we're very self-assured and don't really give a hoot what the rest of the world thinks. And yet despite those prevalent tendencies, the amount of genuine sexism here is pretty minimal. In other words, this whole place is largely overrun with "nice guys".

Rita chose a silly place to pick a fight over this. Participation here is voluntary, nobody here controls or affects her assignments or advancement in any way. She has nothing at stake here other than a place in this community. And as far as I recall, she has always been well received. Even the "furor" over her accusations has been pretty muted, more reasoned than emotional, and mostly directed at the validity of her accusation. If we were really a bunch of knuckle-dragging, poorly disguised misogynists there would have been an immediate avalanche of ad hominem (or ad feminam?) headed her direction. But there wasn't; we're really not the enemy. So why start a shooting war over sexism here?

Originally Posted by rainmaker

And I still don't get the sophomore/woman/language thing. Perhaps you could explain it?

Why are you asking Scrappy? Like you, he can only infer Mark's meaning. It was Mark's post. Go ask him what he actually implied.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

There isn't CLEARLY no offense intended in Mark's joke. It's just not that clear, Scrappy. I know Mark pretty well, and I dont' feel the joke is clear at all. So how could it possibly be clear to Rita?

Even if the joke is unclear, the "offensive" part is non-existent. As I tried to point out above, if it's not a joke, it makes no sense at all. It's not insulting, derogatory or offensive or ANYTHING. If you don't think it's funny, then it's NOTHING -- and CLEARLY not offensive.

Rita was very blunt about her opinion, but I dont' think she's lumping all men together. She might very well have been surprised that it didn't offend me, too. COnsidering that I'm on this board every day and she had to know that I saw it. Maybe that surprise and accusation was against me too?

You are bending over backwards in order NOT to be offended by Rita's comment. Do you honestly believe, even for one second, that Rita's "you all" comment is directed at you? Really? She is saying that there are derogatory comments about women and the men can't even see them. We're just too emotionally blunted and conditioned not to value women to be able to discern good-natured and well-intentioned needling from the obvious misogyny contained in those posts.

You're working really hard at not being offended by Rita's comments. That's fine. Once again, my problem is not that she thinks we're too stupid to see the offensiveness of Mark's comments. My problem is the fact that she insults an entire gender while being offended at someone insulting an entire gender. There's a word for that, which I have very carefully avoided so that I don't inflame the thread even more.

[rainmaker]

BITS, I know that Mark is almost always off-the-wall. That's why I didn't respond to what he said, even though at first glance it bugged me. I figured that although it looked obnoxious, I might be wrong, and there was no point in fighting about it. Rita obviously doesn't know Mark as well as I do, and doesn't have the perspective I do. She couldn't read the "wheels within wheels" type humor any better than I could, but she doesn't know him well enough to give him the benefit of the doubt.

All that to say, yea, I do see how it could look sexist even though I'm not sure I understand what he was trying to say.

Yup there's a lot of sexism out in the world, but while the sexism on this board is quite a bit less, as a rule, it's not "minimal". I got tired of arguing about it a couple of years ago. It's like trying to teach a... nope, that's not a good way to say it. It's just pointless to argue, because the ones who already get it are the only ones who get it. Rita just isn't there yet.

And scrappy, yea, I do think she might have been aiming at me. Why would she say "you-all" if she didn't mean to include Karin and me? Rita's not thin-skinned as a rule, it doesn't appear to me, so I'm guessing she wouldn't have hesitated to offend all "men" if that's what she'd meant.

All that being said, I gotta admit, this isn't the turn I expected this thread to take. It started off so well!

[Rita C]

The boys sophomore coach at my local school is a woman.


Hey - that's not nice. Oh wait - you mean for real. Sorry.

I've read the replies since my response. Interesting reading.

First, there is a difference between stupidity and ignorance. Ignorance can be fixed. That's all I'm trying to do.

The comment above, as read by me, has Mark facetiously saying that BITS is calling the male sophmore coach a woman. Young men and boys are the ones I have heard using the word "woman" as an insult. Maybe most of you, including Karin and rainmaker haven't heard it used. As a teacher of middle school and high school, I may have had more opportunity to hear it used as an insult than you all have. OR it may be an insult more common to this region. I don't know. But now you know it's out there. How you use that knowledge determines whether or not you are stupid. Not your sex.

I am sure that Mark meant it as a joke. I didn't think it was funny. There was a time I thought Polish jokes were funny. I'm sure that you all thought so also. We learned. That's all I ask now.

I never said anyone was stupid. Scrapper inferred that. In other words, he was being as overly sensitive as he accused me of being.

I don't expect to convince Scrapper or anyone else. I thought rainmaker made my point very well in her responses.

Rita

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Rita C

[B]
First, there is a difference between stupidity and ignorance. Ignorance can be fixed. That's all I'm trying to do.

Fixed to fall in line with your opinion of the way things ought to be?