You make the Call

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by truerookie

I think we take this advantage/disadvantage concept; philsophy; criteria too far when it comes to making the proper call regardless of how much time is on the clock. The OP made a call which is very clear some DO NOT HAVE THE GUTS to make.

Assignor: I seen the game; good game until towards the end there was a foul which should have been called. (Displacement) POE

Official: Yeah, I was applying A/DAD because there was only 4.9 seconds left to play in the game.

This would go over well.

Rook, there are no absolutes in this racket. There sureasheck might be circumstances where the appropriate call is a no-call. And there also might be instances where an assignor will give you hell for making the call.

That's what Dan is saying. Fwiw, I agree with him.

[truerookie]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

And there also might be instances where an assignor will give you hell for making the call.

That's what Dan is saying. Fwiw, I agree with him.

That's fine, I didn't expect you to agree with me. I was saying DISPLACEMENT is a POE this year. If an assignor have a problem with enforcing a POE then thats a problem (IMO) without regards of how much time is left in the game.

[tmp44]

FWIW, according to the OP, the foul occurred while the ball was in flight. From the way I read the post, the push/displacement thus occurred prior to the ball entering the hoop. If this is the case, then the official would have no idea of the advantage/disadvantage of the ball going in when he observed the foul. IMO, if the contact warranted a foul, with the ball still in the air, cracking the whistle is the right move.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by tmp44

FWIW, according to the OP, the foul occurred while the ball was in flight. From the way I read the post, the push/displacement thus occurred prior to the ball entering the hoop. If this is the case, then the official would have no idea of the advantage/disadvantage of the ball going in when he observed the foul. IMO, if the contact warranted a foul, with the ball still in the air, cracking the whistle is the right move.

Normally, on a small push (very little displacement) like this, if there's no rebound, there's no call. If the displacement is significant, it's often best to get it, especially early in the game.

This is when a patient whistle comes in handy. Sort of like letting the hack go at the top of the key because the ball handler played through it and had a layup.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by truerookie

That's fine, I didn't expect you to agree with me. I was saying DISPLACEMENT is a POE this year. If an assignor have a problem with enforcing a POE then thats a problem (IMO) without regards of how much time is left in the game.

Assignors may also have a problem with officials who don't understand that displacement can be incidental contact too. That would be the officials that don't comprehend what rule 4-27-3 is trying to tell them.

Rule 4-27-3--"Similarly, contact which does not hinder the opponent from participating in normal defensive or offensive movements should be considered incidental".

Just because you have "displacement" doesn't mean that the displacement will always be a foul. It will be a foul sometimes. That's all I'm trying to say.

We've had numerous threads where posters espouse the virtues of officials having a patient whistle and also seeing a play out. If you do have a patient whistle and see this play out, and the ball does go in, and the player displaced is immediately able to resume their normal offensive or defensive duties, and if the contact was not rough or excessive, should a foul be called? In my opinion, in that particular case, no. Note the "in my opinion".

Btw, it's not really a good idea to try and back up your own view by saying that assignors agree with you, unless you are an assignor and you also know that the great majority of assignors also hold that view.

Btw, fwiw the POE that you are referencing specifically is concerned with 2 situations- post play and screening- where the displacement is also definitely putting an opponent at a disadvantage.

[truerookie]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Btw, it's not really a good idea to try and back up your own view by saying that assignors agree with you, unless you are an assignor and you also know that the great majority of assignors also hold that view.

[B](I never said exclusively that assignor(s) agree with me. I stated that if they have a problem with an official enforcing a POE then that's a problem in itself.)[/B]


Btw, fwiw the POE that you are referencing specifically is concerned with 2 situations- post play and screening- where the displacement is also definitely putting an opponent at a disadvantage.

(I won't quote the entire displacement section. This is the last sentence and basis for my discussion. "When a player dislodges an opponent from an established position by pushing or backing in it is a foul." It doesn't state you should have a patient whistle or see the results of the play in order to penalize appropiately. It's a FOUL!!!

Jurassic Referee, I understand all the principles, concepts which are being discussed. I just don't agree with them. If an official is officiating off ball like he/she is suppose to do. They will not know if an attempt is success or unsuccessful in order to penalize something that occurred in their PCA. That's my point.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by truerookie

(I won't quote the entire displacement section. This is the last sentence and basis for my discussion. "When a player dislodges an opponent from an established position by pushing or backing in it is a foul." It doesn't state you should have a patient whistle or see the results of the play in order to penalize appropiately. It's a FOUL!!!

Jurassic Referee, I understand all the principles, concepts which are being discussed. I just don't agree with them. If an official is officiating off ball like he/she is suppose to do. They will not know if an attempt is success or unsuccessful in order to penalize something that occurred in their PCA. That's my point.

I agree with you to an extent. But the off-ball official should have knowledge of the status of the ball, even if she's not really watching closely. Off-ball officials MUST know if there's a shot in the air, whether it goes or not and so on. When a foul is a gotta-get, then ya gotta-get it no matter where the ball, how much time is left, or whatever. But the A/D thing gets stretched a little further than normal when there's a shot in flight, imo. It can't hurt to wait a half second and see if there's really any reason to call something, when it's not 3 feet of displacement, or knocking someone on their @ss. I think the POE is regarding the more obvious calls, and not the maybe stuff.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

When a foul is a gotta-get

Juulie, what's the mechanic for that? Is this it?

[CJRef]

We're not talking about taking your eyes out of your primary and following the flight of the ball, but you absolutely have to know the status of the ball, regardless of where you are at and what is going on in your primary. This includes whether or not it is going in. You may not be able to tell with 100% certainty that it will drop but you should have a good idea. If it goes in you need to know in the event your partner(s) need your help and if it doesn't you should be anticipating where the rebound is going to go in order to get a better look. I'll admit that it's a skill that takes time to develop, but I believe it's a very necessary one. To me it's like the difference between looking a couple of seconds ahead when you're driving and just seeing the break lights in front of you or looking a few more seconds ahead and seeing the wreck three cars in front of you and being able to stop in time.

[truerookie]

Interpretation, this is what this comes down to. Individual interpretation.

[Karin]

Incidental contact I agree that advantage/disadvantage principles be used.
Was it a game management call? Had there been tension between the players?Would you have made the same call at the start of the game?As an evaluator this is what I would be asking.If yes to these points or if the ref offered these explanations to me then all good