How long before your first T to a coach?

[Bearfanmike20]

Originally Posted by archer

2:15 seconds in to the first quarter of my very first varsity game. Counting T's is like a tin horn gunfighter cutting notches in his gun. I dont keep up with them, but I hand them out like candy on Halloween! 90% of HS coaches are idiots and do not know the rules. They are supposed to attend the state clinics to know the rule changes... But instead of going to learn the game, they send the waterboy or the janitor. So in turn, when one of these morons that tax payers are subsidising acts up. I wack him! And if one isnt good enough. I wack him again and send him to the time out corner!!!!! If they dont take the time to become educated to benefit the kids. Im not taking the time to listen to him rant about a moving screen!!!!!!!! Give me a break coach!!! Read the damn rule book!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

wow.. thats a strong stance.

[archer]

Im sick and tired of going to the state meetings only to see the trainer, janitor or some other representative that has no interest in knowing the rules. I wish I had a dollar for every coach that has yelled " watch the moving screen!" Bascially what it boils down to is that we the taxpayers are not getting our monies worth from coaches and school employees. If we turned out a product in the private sector like the schools that turn out their products. We would be out of business. So Yea, its a strong stance because Im tired of the idiot coaches that try and manipulate officals with their tripe they spout out during a game!!!!

[Bearfanmike20]

So.. I made a 5 sec call on sat. Coach sais, "Thats the shortest 5 sec call I have ever seen."

I just give him a look, and then let it go. He said nothing else and I think I made my point in just one look.

[biz]

So.. I made a 5 sec call on sat. Coach sais, "Thats the shortest 5 sec call I have ever seen."

Same situation in a 7th grade girls game after a made basket I happened to glance at the clock because I knew we were under a minute in the half. The clock said 35.(something). I finish my count and blow the whistle for the 5 sec. violation and the clock stops at 29.8. I'm congratulating myself and the coach is saying something about a fast count.

That being said....

First of all I dont talk to ***. coaches! As far as Im concerned they are like the lil yip yip dogs that are nippin at your hills when you are taking a walk with the misses.

Archer, you are no worse than an uneducated coach who believes the officials cost his/her team a game. As a High School JV coach and Varsity Assistant coach I take great offense to you lumping every coach in the world together. I don't go to those state meetings because I don't need the rule book explained to me, not because I don't care.

I have refereed for over 10 years and I give coaches the benefit of the doubt until they cross the line, you clearly come in to every game with a pre-conceived notion of what to expect from the coaches and that is every bit as wrong as the "howler-monkey" coaches that don't know the rules.

[archer]

Originally Posted by biz

I don't go to those state meetings because I don't need the rule book explained to me,

This is why I have no patience for jv coaches or varsity coaches for the most part.
You say you have reffed for 10 yrs and dont go to state clinics? Typical mentality of a coach............................. errr... coach/referee.
When I was younger and doing the AAU curcuit I came acoss an a$$. coach for an AAU team. He made a point to let me know he was a registered official in our state. Me being a young offical took it for granted that he would not be a problem. Well he starts on the guy I was training. I explained to him that he was learning the game and of all people he should know what the young guy was going through. Well,,,,, He got ejected. Escorted off the property, etc... I in turn on the following day was informed by this idiot that He is real good buddies with HIS commissioner and that I would never work a post season game in high school ever again...... Well,,, after 4 state finals and countless Region Championships I still wonder when Im gonna get my games taken away.
So until you decide to take this serious. Dont come on here telling me how to officiate...... Boy, as far as Im concerned...... Your still pooping yellow and Ive no patience for Know-it-alls!

[biz]

I think we're misunderstanding each other, or at least the way things work in our respective states. I attend each year my association's interpretation meeting, but I don't attend the state interscholastic association's rules meeting for coaches because I find it remedial and a waste of my time. Once again I find your preconceived notions to go beyond the normal, usually humorous, coach bashing that I've come to expect on this forum and I resent you questioning my dedication to officiating. I give my brother and sister officials the highest level of respect while they are busting their a$$es, especially in a game that I am coaching, and I expect that respect in return when I am working my hardest to teach young men the right way to play the game.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by biz

I think we're misunderstanding each other, or at least the way things work in our respective states. I attend each year my association's interpretation meeting, but I don't attend the state interscholastic association's rules meeting for coaches because I find it remedial and a waste of my time. Once again I find your preconceived notions to go beyond the normal, usually humorous, coach bashing that I've come to expect on this forum and I resent you questioning my dedication to officiating. I give my brother and sister officials the highest level of respect while they are busting their a$$es, especially in a game that I am coaching, and I expect that respect in return when I am working my hardest to teach young men the right way to play the game.

Good for you.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by Bearfanmike20

So.. I made a 5 sec call on sat. Coach sais, "Thats the shortest 5 sec call I have ever seen."

Davism for a coach yelling to get a 5 (or 3) second call:

"Coach, that wasn't 5 (or 3) seconds even in dog years."

[SMEngmann]

I think the thing here is that there is no one right way, whether or not to T or how many Ts called has a lot to do with personal philosophy about how to best manage and control a game. There are times when there are Ts that are warranted, but that also could have been prevented at an earlier point in the game. I think experience, introspection and reviewing games/tapes helps determine those times. Addressing actions earlier in a game can establish a boundary for later in the game. If actions go unaddressed early, there may come a time later where a coach deserves a T and crosses the line, but that situation might not have arisen if the official had been more preventative early on.

There are also some officials who use the T a lot more liberally in order to control the game. In these cases, the Ts aren't necessarily notches on the belt, but more strictly meted out and done so consistently over a period of time. Coaches know when they see an official like this what they're in for, so they have to adjust, and that's one way to control and be in charge of a game. Right or wrong, that's the way that works for some.

Either way, there's no right way. The one thing that we definitely do need to consider are the causes of coaches popping off, because there's always a reason. Is it because of my judgment? Is it because of the time and score of the game, and it's an emotional reaction? Is he protecting a player? Figuring these things out I think are necessary for an effective response and evaluation of response to improve next time. Just assuming that the coach is an idiot (which can be the case a lot of times) without evaluating fully the situation, in my opinion, is the wrong approach and restricts improvement and development.

[blindzebra]

Originally Posted by SMEngmann

I think the thing here is that there is no one right way, whether or not to T or how many Ts called has a lot to do with personal philosophy about how to best manage and control a game. There are times when there are Ts that are warranted, but that also could have been prevented at an earlier point in the game. I think experience, introspection and reviewing games/tapes helps determine those times. Addressing actions earlier in a game can establish a boundary for later in the game. If actions go unaddressed early, there may come a time later where a coach deserves a T and crosses the line, but that situation might not have arisen if the official had been more preventative early on.

There are also some officials who use the T a lot more liberally in order to control the game. In these cases, the Ts aren't necessarily notches on the belt, but more strictly meted out and done so consistently over a period of time. Coaches know when they see an official like this what they're in for, so they have to adjust, and that's one way to control and be in charge of a game. Right or wrong, that's the way that works for some.

Either way, there's no right way. The one thing that we definitely do need to consider are the causes of coaches popping off, because there's always a reason. Is it because of my judgment? Is it because of the time and score of the game, and it's an emotional reaction? Is he protecting a player? Figuring these things out I think are necessary for an effective response and evaluation of response to improve next time. Just assuming that the coach is an idiot (which can be the case a lot of times) without evaluating fully the situation, in my opinion, is the wrong approach and restricts improvement and development.

99% of the time coaches talk for one reason, to get the calls in their favor. Ever notice how they rarely say, "Hey we were holding their cutter that last trip down, can you watch for us doing that?"

I think you need a healthy level of cynicism when it comes to coaches...not the Dirty Harry level of Archer, but some. Too much self-reflection on comments will probably lead to calls swaying in an unfair way.

[TheOracle]

Originally Posted by blindzebra

99% of the time coaches talk for one reason, to get the calls in their favor. Ever notice how they rarely say, "Hey we were holding their cutter that last trip down, can you watch for us doing that?"

I think you need a healthy level of cynicism when it comes to coaches...not the Dirty Harry level of Archer, but some. Too much self-reflection on comments will probably lead to calls swaying in an unfair way.

Did you ever think that instead of trying to get calls that some coaches, especially the ones at higher levels, are trying to alert your attention to a perceived disadvantage? Coaches spend time watching films and studying the game. They know when moving screens cause a huge advantage. They know when offensive players use their arms or uppoer body to illegally establish position. And these things are grey areas that occur in most games. Bad coahces are dumb--comments are just noise. But a lot of coaches just want to communicate, and may have valid points. Experience teaches how to distinguish. Cynical new officials will never learn.

[blindzebra]

Originally Posted by TheOracle

Did you ever think that instead of trying to get calls that some coaches, especially the ones at higher levels, are trying to alert your attention to a perceived disadvantage? Coaches spend time watching films and studying the game. They know when moving screens cause a huge advantage. They know when offensive players use their arms or uppoer body to illegally establish position. And these things are grey areas that occur in most games. Bad coahces are dumb--comments are just noise. But a lot of coaches just want to communicate, and may have valid points. Experience teaches how to distinguish. Cynical new officials will never learn.

If they are alerting you to a perceived disadvantage, are they not trying to get the call in their favor? Geesh.

Something tells me every time a coach yells 3 seconds the oracle blows his whistle, every time they yell reach there's a whistle, moving screen whistle, over the back whistle...

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by TheOracle

Did you ever think that instead of trying to get calls that some coaches, especially the ones at higher levels, are trying to alert your attention to a perceived disadvantage? Coaches spend time watching films and studying the game. They know when moving screens cause a huge advantage. They know when offensive players use their arms or uppoer body to illegally establish position. And these things are grey areas that occur in most games. Bad coahces are dumb--comments are just noise. But a lot of coaches just want to communicate, and may have valid points. Experience teaches how to distinguish. Cynical new officials will never learn.

Well, that's certainly an Old School philosophy.

Welcome back, Old School. Better luck this time.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Well, that's certainly an Old School philosophy.

Welcome back, Old School. Better luck this time.

You're so cynical.

[dan74]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Well, that's certainly an Old School philosophy.

Welcome back, Old School. Better luck this time.

I have to admit that I've been wondering the same thing. Quite a similarity.