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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Fri Dec 14, 2007, 04:48pm
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Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by archer
2:15 seconds in to the first quarter of my very first varsity game. Counting T's is like a tin horn gunfighter cutting notches in his gun. I dont keep up with them, but I hand them out like candy on Halloween! 90% of HS coaches are idiots and do not know the rules. They are supposed to attend the state clinics to know the rule changes... But instead of going to learn the game, they send the waterboy or the janitor. So in turn, when one of these morons that tax payers are subsidising acts up. I wack him! And if one isnt good enough. I wack him again and send him to the time out corner!!!!! If they dont take the time to become educated to benefit the kids. Im not taking the time to listen to him rant about a moving screen!!!!!!!! Give me a break coach!!! Read the damn rule book!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Don't sugar coat it archer, tell us how you feel. What would be your reply to the a$$_istant coach who asks "rule book, you mean they write this stuff down"?
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Fri Dec 14, 2007, 04:59pm
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First of all I dont talk to ***. coaches! As far as Im concerned they are like the lil yip yip dogs that are nippin at your hills when you are taking a walk with the misses. At the end of last year I called a walk b/c a kid fell to the floor while in possession of the ball. I go by the coach and the idiot told me that I blew that call. On my trip back down the floor I ask, whys that coach? He smugly told me that the kid tranferred his pivot foot to his butt. I asked him if he was referring to the anal pivot? He promptly replied with a smug look. Thats exactly what Im talking about.......... IDIOT!
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Fri Dec 14, 2007, 05:13pm
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I think the thing here is that there is no one right way, whether or not to T or how many Ts called has a lot to do with personal philosophy about how to best manage and control a game. There are times when there are Ts that are warranted, but that also could have been prevented at an earlier point in the game. I think experience, introspection and reviewing games/tapes helps determine those times. Addressing actions earlier in a game can establish a boundary for later in the game. If actions go unaddressed early, there may come a time later where a coach deserves a T and crosses the line, but that situation might not have arisen if the official had been more preventative early on.

There are also some officials who use the T a lot more liberally in order to control the game. In these cases, the Ts aren't necessarily notches on the belt, but more strictly meted out and done so consistently over a period of time. Coaches know when they see an official like this what they're in for, so they have to adjust, and that's one way to control and be in charge of a game. Right or wrong, that's the way that works for some.

Either way, there's no right way. The one thing that we definitely do need to consider are the causes of coaches popping off, because there's always a reason. Is it because of my judgment? Is it because of the time and score of the game, and it's an emotional reaction? Is he protecting a player? Figuring these things out I think are necessary for an effective response and evaluation of response to improve next time. Just assuming that the coach is an idiot (which can be the case a lot of times) without evaluating fully the situation, in my opinion, is the wrong approach and restricts improvement and development.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Fri Dec 14, 2007, 05:27pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SMEngmann
I think the thing here is that there is no one right way, whether or not to T or how many Ts called has a lot to do with personal philosophy about how to best manage and control a game. There are times when there are Ts that are warranted, but that also could have been prevented at an earlier point in the game. I think experience, introspection and reviewing games/tapes helps determine those times. Addressing actions earlier in a game can establish a boundary for later in the game. If actions go unaddressed early, there may come a time later where a coach deserves a T and crosses the line, but that situation might not have arisen if the official had been more preventative early on.

There are also some officials who use the T a lot more liberally in order to control the game. In these cases, the Ts aren't necessarily notches on the belt, but more strictly meted out and done so consistently over a period of time. Coaches know when they see an official like this what they're in for, so they have to adjust, and that's one way to control and be in charge of a game. Right or wrong, that's the way that works for some.

Either way, there's no right way. The one thing that we definitely do need to consider are the causes of coaches popping off, because there's always a reason. Is it because of my judgment? Is it because of the time and score of the game, and it's an emotional reaction? Is he protecting a player? Figuring these things out I think are necessary for an effective response and evaluation of response to improve next time. Just assuming that the coach is an idiot (which can be the case a lot of times) without evaluating fully the situation, in my opinion, is the wrong approach and restricts improvement and development.

99% of the time coaches talk for one reason, to get the calls in their favor. Ever notice how they rarely say, "Hey we were holding their cutter that last trip down, can you watch for us doing that?"

I think you need a healthy level of cynicism when it comes to coaches...not the Dirty Harry level of Archer, but some. Too much self-reflection on comments will probably lead to calls swaying in an unfair way.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Fri Dec 14, 2007, 05:56pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blindzebra
99% of the time coaches talk for one reason, to get the calls in their favor. Ever notice how they rarely say, "Hey we were holding their cutter that last trip down, can you watch for us doing that?"

I think you need a healthy level of cynicism when it comes to coaches...not the Dirty Harry level of Archer, but some. Too much self-reflection on comments will probably lead to calls swaying in an unfair way.
Did you ever think that instead of trying to get calls that some coaches, especially the ones at higher levels, are trying to alert your attention to a perceived disadvantage? Coaches spend time watching films and studying the game. They know when moving screens cause a huge advantage. They know when offensive players use their arms or uppoer body to illegally establish position. And these things are grey areas that occur in most games. Bad coahces are dumb--comments are just noise. But a lot of coaches just want to communicate, and may have valid points. Experience teaches how to distinguish. Cynical new officials will never learn.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Fri Dec 14, 2007, 06:06pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOracle
Did you ever think that instead of trying to get calls that some coaches, especially the ones at higher levels, are trying to alert your attention to a perceived disadvantage? Coaches spend time watching films and studying the game. They know when moving screens cause a huge advantage. They know when offensive players use their arms or uppoer body to illegally establish position. And these things are grey areas that occur in most games. Bad coahces are dumb--comments are just noise. But a lot of coaches just want to communicate, and may have valid points. Experience teaches how to distinguish. Cynical new officials will never learn.
If they are alerting you to a perceived disadvantage, are they not trying to get the call in their favor? Geesh.

Something tells me every time a coach yells 3 seconds the oracle blows his whistle, every time they yell reach there's a whistle, moving screen whistle, over the back whistle...
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Fri Dec 14, 2007, 07:06pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOracle
Did you ever think that instead of trying to get calls that some coaches, especially the ones at higher levels, are trying to alert your attention to a perceived disadvantage? Coaches spend time watching films and studying the game. They know when moving screens cause a huge advantage. They know when offensive players use their arms or uppoer body to illegally establish position. And these things are grey areas that occur in most games. Bad coahces are dumb--comments are just noise. But a lot of coaches just want to communicate, and may have valid points. Experience teaches how to distinguish. Cynical new officials will never learn.
Well, that's certainly an Old School philosophy.

Welcome back, Old School. Better luck this time.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Fri Dec 14, 2007, 07:11pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
Well, that's certainly an Old School philosophy.

Welcome back, Old School. Better luck this time.
You're so cynical.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Fri Dec 14, 2007, 07:23pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kblehman
Question for everyone who has dished out a "T" to a coach:
How long, or how many games had you officiated, before giving that first one out?
I can't tell you exactly, because clocks didn't have tenths of a second back then, but it was under one second in my first game. At least, I think it was. Actually, sundials weren't that accurate, either.

I can tell you that Dr. Naismith didn't appreciate being rung up that fast.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Fri Dec 14, 2007, 11:01pm
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Ahhhh the first T...so long ago...My first one game in my first year about game 4 or 5....I actually issued the coach's 2nd T and tossed him.

Had an OOB play in front of his bench..he thought the other team just threw the ball OOB on a fast break but his player tipped it out. He went off pretty bad right next to me...I didn't know what to do..I figured he was just venting by my partner who was now on the baseline took exception and whacked him....This just threw gas on the fire and it ended with him grabbing his coat from the bleacher behind him, walking past me toward the door (like he knew it was coming) and as he passed me he said "I'm outta here, you guys SUCK!"....So I figured I'd make sure he kept on walking.

Oh, that was 7 years ago in a 3rd grade rec league!
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Fri Dec 14, 2007, 11:31pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coltdoggs
Ahhhh the first T...so long ago...My first one game in my first year about game 4 or 5....I actually issued the coach's 2nd T and tossed him.

Had an OOB play in front of his bench..he thought the other team just threw the ball OOB on a fast break but his player tipped it out. He went off pretty bad right next to me...I didn't know what to do..I figured he was just venting by my partner who was now on the baseline took exception and whacked him....This just threw gas on the fire and it ended with him grabbing his coat from the bleacher behind him, walking past me toward the door (like he knew it was coming) and as he passed me he said "I'm outta here, you guys SUCK!"....So I figured I'd make sure he kept on walking.

Oh, that was 7 years ago in a 3rd grade rec league!
Wow! Unreal.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old Sat Dec 15, 2007, 11:00am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
Well, that's certainly an Old School philosophy.

Welcome back, Old School. Better luck this time.

I have to admit that I've been wondering the same thing. Quite a similarity.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old Sat Dec 15, 2007, 04:25pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SMEngmann
The one thing that we definitely do need to consider are the causes of coaches popping off, because there's always a reason. Is it because of my judgment? Is it because of the time and score of the game, and it's an emotional reaction?
In my brief career it seems that a coach is more likely to get on me when he's frustrated over the way his team is playing, or frustrated because his team just doesn't have the talent to compete with their opponent. So instead of admitting as much he begins to vent at the ref and place blame elsewhere.

I guess what I get kind of tired of are the coaches who make verbal comments about every call or non-call during the game when things aren't going their way. I heard a few last night in my JV game: "man it's barn ball out there," "no foul?" "over the back!," and then when her (inept) team finally drew an interior foul she calls out "thank you!" as if the game were lopsided because of how we were calling it instead of because her team was slower and less athletic than the other team. How far do you let that constant chirping go?
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old Sat Dec 15, 2007, 04:35pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coltdoggs
Ahhhh the first T...so long ago...My first one game in my first year about game 4 or 5....I actually issued the coach's 2nd T and tossed him. ... Oh, that was 7 years ago in a 3rd grade rec league!
LOL, too funny. Ironically, the closest I've been has not been in a school game but in a kid's tournament. When I reminded the coach that if I called everything he was whining about we'd end up in a FT contest between two teams of 4th grade girls who couldn't even throw the ball that far, let alone actually make a FT, he calmed down a bit.

Sheesh, some people really shouldn't be coaches.
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old Sat Dec 15, 2007, 06:09pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SMEngmann
The one thing that we definitely do need to consider are the causes of coaches popping off, because there's always a reason. Is it because of my judgment? Is it because of the time and score of the game, and it's an emotional reaction? Is he protecting a player?
Wow. I have no chance of figuring out why some high school coach is doing what they do. I've known my brother for 42 years and couldn't tell you why he does what he does half the time. I just don't think I'm gonna have much luck figuring out some stranger in less than an hour and half. Quite franlky I don't care to either. The coaches are there to coach and be role models, not act like my 2 year old nephew.

Coaches pop off for a variety of reasons.

A. can't coach - it's the refs fault we lost
B. Not enough talent and can't coach--it's the refs fault we lost
C. Have talent and can't coach-it's the refs fault we lost.

It's easier to blame then to accept responsibility. It's pretty easy to expect perfection from others then to accept that calls get kicked. I am a believer that the incessant whiners just don't know what they're doing so they whine. Heck any self respecting alley cat can do that for an hour and a half.
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