"Letting Them Play..."

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Bearfanmike20

Anyway there was a woman ref who reminded me of Violet Palmer. (the NBA official)

She had this chip on her shoulder and was calling everything. I mean everything.

Have you ever met Ms. Palmer? What was it about this official that reminded you of her, other than the fact that she was a woman?

I had the extreme pleasure of meeting Ms. Palmer at camp and I can tell you that she has no chip on her shoulder. She is confident, but does not have the "in your face" mentality that we see with a lot of male officials.

[Bearfanmike20]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Have you ever met Ms. Palmer? What was it about this official that reminded you of her, other than the fact that she was a woman?

I had the extreme pleasure of meeting Ms. Palmer at camp and I can tell you that she has no chip on her shoulder. She is confident, but does not have the "in your face" mentality that we see with a lot of male officials.

I have watched ms palmer officiate and she officiates with a chip on her shoulder. She IMO is the WORST official in the nba, and I cringe every time I watch a game with her as an official.

She may be a very nice person off the court. May be a saint. I'm just talking about on the court presence. She comes accross as if she has somthing to proove. As officials we dont have to prove anything, and I think she loses sight of that.

Its just an opinion. Nothing more.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Bearfanmike20

She had this chip on her shoulder and was calling everything. I mean everything. Yes.. there was some contact sure, but not enought IMO to call it every time. This woman blew her whistle more then Jenna Jamison.. well anyway.. she blew the whistle alot.

She was getting bood mercelesly.

My question is.. Why??.. I notice this with alot of women officials. (not all of them) Her calls were confident and her mechanics were good, but.. very over zealous with the whistle IMO.

Also called alot of travel calls that IMO were not nessesary. The player would be catching the ball in the middle of a step. They would establish the pivot foot, and then pivot and she would call it.

Originally Posted by Bearfanmike20

I have watched ms palmer officiate and she officiates with a chip on her shoulder. She IMO is the WORST official in the nba, and I cringe every time I watch a game with her as an official.

She may be a very nice person off the court. May be a saint. I'm just talking about on the court presence. She comes accross as if she has somthing to proove. As officials we dont have to prove anything, and I think she loses sight of that.

Its just an opinion. Nothing more.

Speaking as a woman official and having seen and interacted with many male and female officials, I'd say the problem here is that you're mis-interpreting what you're seeing. In my experience a lot more women have good reason to have chips on their shoulders than actually do. I'd you're seeing something that seems to you like a chip but isn't really. Are there women with chips on their shoulders? Sure. But I'd say "most women" is too many.

I suggest you work with some of these women and get to know them personally so that you can judge their work as you know them, too. Might make a difference in how you see things.

And with regard to Ms Palmer, if she were the worst ref in the NBA, she wouldn't still be there. THey've got a number of very good women refs in their D league, and they certainly don't need to keep her for political reasons. There are plenty of people who could step up and fill her shoes, if she couldn't.

[Bearfanmike20]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Speaking as a woman official and having seen and interacted with many male and female officials, I'd say the problem here is that you're mis-interpreting what you're seeing. In my experience a lot more women have good reason to have chips on their shoulders than actually do. I'd you're seeing something that seems to you like a chip but isn't really. Are there women with chips on their shoulders? Sure. But I'd say "most women" is too many.

I suggest you work with some of these women and get to know them personally so that you can judge their work as you know them, too. Might make a difference in how you see things.

And with regard to Ms Palmer, if she were the worst ref in the NBA, she wouldn't still be there. THey've got a number of very good women refs in their D league, and they certainly don't need to keep her for political reasons. There are plenty of people who could step up and fill her shoes, if she couldn't.

I will work with any and every body. Honestly I'd rather work with a woman official with somthing to prove then half of the male officials who are just collecting a check.

I was just making an observation and nothing more.

ps... I didn't say most.. I said "a lot" Wording means alot so please quote me correctly.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Bearfanmike20

ps... I didn't say most.. I said "a lot" Wording means alot so please quote me correctly.

Okay so how many is "a lot" compared to "most"?

Here are some rather vague quantity terms -- rank them in order from least to most.

a lot, some, most, a few, almost all, many, the vast majority, a couple, plenty, not very many, several, a minority

[Bearfanmike20]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Okay so how many is "a lot" compared to "most"?

Here are some rather vague quantity terms -- rank them in order from least to most.

a lot, some, most, a few, almost all, many, the vast majority, a couple, plenty, not very many, several, a minority

ok.. you asked.

from most to least...

almost all
most
the vast majority
half of
many
plenty
a lot
several
some
A minority
Not very many
a few
a couple

hows that for a ranking... I added a half of so you can get an idea of placement.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Bearfanmike20

I have watched ms palmer officiate and she officiates with a chip on her shoulder. She IMO is the WORST official in the nba, and I cringe every time I watch a game with her as an official.

That may be but the NBA has been disagreeing with you since 1997. In fact they disagree so much that she's now getting play off games.

As for your original post... usually JV games are officiated by JV officials. They have some learning to do whether men or women. But I cringe whenever I hear an official say he doesn't want to "take over the game". That's what we're there for.

[Bearfanmike20]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

That may be but the NBA has been disagreeing with you since 1997. In fact they disagree so much that she's now getting play off games.

As for your original post... usually JV games are officiated by JV officials. They have some learning to do whether men or women. But I cringe whenever I hear an official say he doesn't want to "take over the game". That's what we're there for.

I disagree.. we are not there to take over a game. Just call it. Most of the experienced officials that have mentored me in my very young career have stressed two things....

1. Dont leave your whistle in your mouth on a jump ball...

2. Have a patient whistle. Wait for what your seeing to unfold before you make the call.

ex. I was calling a game on sat, and b1 comes up to a1 and goes for the ball to force a jump ball. In my mind I anticipated that and called the jump ball. I should have waited the split second cause b1 just after my whitsle rolled up on top of a1 trying to wrestle the ball away. Clearly a foul, but.. I had already called jump ball too early. I called it on contact not pos.

The woman ref that I saw on sat night doing the jv game was making the same impatient calls, but she was consistently doing it.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Bearfanmike20

The woman ref that I saw on sat night doing the jv game was making the same impatient calls, but she was consistently doing it.

more likely due to inexperience than gender, as Dan pointed out. Not a chip on the shoulder, just an overly anxious whistle. She'll learn to relax a little, just as many of us -- male and female -- have.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Bearfanmike20

I disagree.. we are not there to take over a game.

If the officials do not control (take over) the game who does?

I really have no idea what the rest of your post has to do with this question.

[Bearfanmike20]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

If the officials do not control (take over) the game who does?

I really have no idea what the rest of your post has to do with this question.

Dan.. I think we have different view on "taking over" Controlling a game within the confines of the rules is not taking over a game in my eyes. Its policing a game.

We guide and enforce the guidelines, but there are alot of... unwriten rules when it comes to this.

One person on this board said that if we called ever contact we saw on the court games would last days. That is taking over the game. When you call every thing you possibly can just cause you can. IMO.

I've never seen any good varsity officials do that. They always are patient and precise with the whistle.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Bearfanmike20

Dan.. I think we have different view on "taking over" Controlling a game within the confines of the rules is not taking over a game in my eyes. Its policing a game.

We guide and enforce the guidelines, but there are alot of... unwriten rules when it comes to this.

One person on this board said that if we called ever contact we saw on the court games would last days. That is taking over the game. When you call every thing you possibly can just cause you can. IMO.

I've never seen any good varsity officials do that. They always are patient and precise with the whistle.

Well again I don't know what a patient whistle - or even what you see varsity officials do - has to do with this discussion. But let's leave it at this: what most would call poor officiating you call "taking over". My view is different - good officials take over as soon as they hit the floor.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Bearfanmike20

Dan.. I think we have different view on "taking over" Controlling a game within the confines of the rules is not taking over a game in my eyes. Its policing a game.

We guide and enforce the guidelines, but there are alot of... unwriten rules when it comes to this.

One person on this board said that if we called ever contact we saw on the court games would last days. That is taking over the game. When you call every thing you possibly can just cause you can. IMO.

I've never seen any good varsity officials do that. They always are patient and precise with the whistle.

The officiating presence -- ie rules, guidelines, The Game -- should take over the game and be in control. That's what makes it a Game. The person in the body needs to be an official though, and not an individual. There's a time for the officiating presence to crack down and take over, calling everything to get the game back where it belongs. There's never a time for an individual to assert his/her own 2x4 personality and call everything because "that's just who I am".

For the officiating presence to take over is good and right. for the 2x4 personality to be an ooo is not good, not right.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Bearfanmike20

I disagree.. we are not there to take over a game. Just call it.

Sometimes "just call it" means "call everything" in order to get the game back under control. That might be called taking over the game. In a game like the one in the original post, it's better to over-call than under-call. You can't just "let them play", as the title of the post says, because they clearly aren't going to play -- they're going to club each other to death.

In those games, you have to call MORE rather than less until the worst offenders are out of the game or the players get the message and rein it in a little. It depends on the particular game, not the level of the game.

[Bearfanmike20]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Sometimes "just call it" means "call everything" in order to get the game back under control. That might be called taking over the game. In a game like the one in the original post, it's better to over-call than under-call. You can't just "let them play", as the title of the post says, because they clearly aren't going to play -- they're going to club each other to death.

In those games, you have to call MORE rather than less until the worst offenders are out of the game or the players get the message and rein it in a little. It depends on the particular game, not the level of the game.

Yes.. I do agree with that. If they are getting to a slug fest you have to reighn them in but I guess I perceive that as controlling not taking over.