Five Second Count Screen

[BillyMac]

Question came up during a scrimmage today. A-1, who is dribbling, is closely guarded, within six feet, in the frontcourt, by B-1. The official begins a five second closely guarded count. Then A-1 dribbles around a screen set by A-2, such that screener A-2 is between dribbler A-1 and defender B-1, who is still within six feet. After dribbling around the screen, the defenders switch men, and A-1 is now closely guarded, within six feet, by B-2. During the entire sequence, dribbler A-1 was always within six feet of either B-1 or B-2. Official calls five second closely guarded violation. Coach politely asks if the count should have been continued after the dribbler went around the screen. My initial thought was that, in the absence of a screener, the count continues when defenders switch assignments, and still stay within six feet of the ball handler, which allows the official to continue the count, however, my thoughts went back to a Refresher Exam question from a few years ago, that I got wrong, and still don't really understand:

2005 IAABO Refresher Exam - Question 22: A-1 is holding the ball in the front court and is closely guarded by B-1. As the official count is at two, A-2 takes and holds a position between A-1 and B-1. Official discontinues the 5 second closely guarded violating count. Is the official correct. Answer Yes, Citations 4-10, 4-23-1.

Was the scrimmage official correct to continue the count in the scrimmage. Why does the official, according to the Refresher Exam answer sheet, discontinue the count in the Refresher Exam situation? I don't really understand the citations given on the answer sheet. In the scrimmage situation, what if the defenders had not switched, in other words, what if B-1 had gone around the screen, such that screener A-2 is between dribbler A-1 and defender B-1, and B-1 still stayed with six feet of the ball handler the entire five seconds, a situation more like the Refresher Exam question, should the count continue or discontinue?

[BktBallRef]

If there's a screener between the player with the ball and the defender, the defender is no longer guarding the player with the ball.

The count should have been discontinued.

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

If there's a screener between the player with the ball and the defender, the defender is no longer guarding the player with the ball.

The count should have been discontinued.

Rule 4-40-8: A player may not "...push the screener aside to MAINTAIN a guarding position on an opponent."

The key here is that a player CAN MAINTAIN a legal guarding position through a screen - just can't displace the screener. Just because there is a screener does not mean A1 is not being closely guarded by B1 as he passes by or through the screen. Likewise, if B2 picks up A1 on the other side of the screen the count continues.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

If there's a screener between the player with the ball and the defender, the defender is no longer guarding the player with the ball.

The count should have been discontinued.

Disagree.

Casebook play 9.10.3(b)-- Team A, while in possession of the ball in it's frontcourt has four teammates surround dribbler A1...the opponents are unable to get to the ball.
RULING: "This is considered to be a closely guarded situation and a violation within 5 seconds ....if any B player is within six feet of the screening teammates and is attempting to gain control of the ball. Preventing opponents from getting to the ball by using screening teammates becomes a violation in five seconds if the opponents are attempting to gain control."

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Ralph

Rule 4-40-8: A player may not "...push the screener aside to MAINTAIN a guarding position on an opponent."

The key here is that a player CAN MAINTAIN a legal guarding position through a screen - just can't displace the screener. Just because there is a screener does not mean A1 is not being closely guarded by B1 as he passes by or through the screen. Likewise, if B2 picks up A1 on the other side of the screen the count continues.

No, he can't. So says the NFHS and the IAABO.

You proved yourself wrong. If he maintained closely guarded postion by being behind the screener, he wouldn't need to push him out of the way to MANTAIN guarding position, would he?

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Disagree.

Casebook play 9.10.3(b)-- from the RULING: "....a violation within 5 seconds ....if any B player is within six feet of the ball and is attempting to gain control of the ball. Preventing opponents from getting to the ball by using screening teammates becomes a violation in five seconds if the opponents are attempting to gain control."

LOL! That's funny as hell! First, you don't post the play. Then, you edit the ruling by using ... to suit your needs. If somebody else did that, you have a damn fit!!

Why don't you post the entire play instead of just copy and pasting part of the ruling to suit your needs?

One screener does not prevent a defender from going around him and re-establishing a guarded position. 4 teammates encircling a player with the ball or fencing him at the sideline is an ENTIRELY different situation. C'mon Woody, you're smarter than that.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

If there's a screener between the player with the ball and the defender, the defender is no longer guarding the player with the ball.

The count should have been discontinued.

I disagree. The defender is still within 6 feet, and is still guarding the ballhandler. Keep counting.

[BktBallRef]

So you are an IAABO rules interpreter and you disagree with their ruling?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

So you are an IAABO rules interpreter and you disagree with their ruling?

I don't even know exactly what IAABO is, so we won't go there. But, as far as NFHS goes, is this specified in an interp or an old case play or something? Though uncommon, we have all seen a defender block a shot from behind a screen. But he cannot be considered to be guarding?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

LOL! That's funny as hell! First, you don't post the play. Then, you edit the ruling by using ... to suit your needs. If somebody else did that, you have a damn fit!!

Why don't you post the entire play instead of just copy and pasting part of the ruling to suit your needs?

I went back and posted the entire case play. The RULING says that you are wrong......specifically the sentence in the ruling that states "Preventing the opponents from getting to the ball by using screening teammates becomes a violation in five seconds if the opponents are attempting to gain control."

Couldn't be clearer imo.

Iow, I still disagree.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

I disagree. The defender is still within 6 feet, and is still guarding the ballhandler. Keep counting.

I agree, for NFHS. For NCAA, I believe the count does stop...but am not certain.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

I went back and posted the entire case play. The RULING says that you are wrong......specifically the sentence in the ruling that states "Preventing the opponents from getting to the ball by using screening teammates becomes a violation in five seconds if the opponents are attempting to gain control."

Couldn't be clearer imo.

Iow, I still disagree.

A screener is a teammate. He is not "teammates."

The case play is clear and has nothing to do with one screener setting a screen.

[Scrapper1]

All I know is that a player is closely guarded any time an opponent has established a legal guarding position within 6 feet. A screener does not mean that the defender has lost legal guarding position. And a screener does not move the defender beyond 6 feet. So what exactly has happened to terminate the count?

Keep counting.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

I agree, for NFHS. For NCAA, I believe the count does stop...but am not certain.

That's what RefMag published this month, iirc. (And, yes, I know that's there are frequently errors in the magazine).

What I find interesting is that this topic did NOT make it into RefMag's "Rules Differences" publication (at least as far as I can tell).

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

No, he can't. So says the NFHS and the IAABO.

You proved yourself wrong. If he maintained closely guarded postion by being behind the screener, he wouldn't need to push him out of the way to MANTAIN guarding position, would he?




LOL! That's funny as hell! First, you don't post the play. Then, you edit the ruling by using ... to suit your needs. If somebody else did that, you have a damn fit!!

Why don't you post the entire play instead of just copy and pasting part of the ruling to suit your needs?

One screener does not prevent a defender from going around him and re-establishing a guarded position. 4 teammates encircling a player with the ball or fencing him at the sideline is an ENTIRELY different situation. C'mon Woody, you're smarter than that.

He can MAINTAIN a closely guarded position while he goes around the screener - that's the point.

Go to the 2006-2007 Simplified and illustrated rule book page 103 9-10-1b. According to you, a screener always stops a 5 second count. While this case involves a boundary line, the rule states "If one or more opponents are within 6 feet of the ball or screening players and cannot get to the ball because of the boundary line or the players, a closely guarded situation is in effect."

This situation shows where a closely guarded count CAN continue. Many screens are set near a boundary line. And many screen are set body to body with a teammate with an opponent reaching around the screener or trying to get around him. The count continues.

[Stat-Man]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

I agree, for NFHS. For NCAA, I believe the count does stop...but am not certain.

NCAA 4-13-4: "When a player is positioned between the player in control of the ball and his or her opponent, who is within 6 feet (men) or 3 feet (women), a closely guarded situation does not exist."

NFHS, as far as I know, lacks this explicit stipulation.