Officials as players

[refnrev]

[QUOTE=JRutledge]This is why he needs to stick to quoting rules....
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But Rut, give credit where it's due. The guy can seriously quote rules.
I don't know about the rest of you, but I've only had a captain ask about a call once and that was when the ball got stuck onthe dribbler's hip and I had a travel. The one exception was an 8th garde Jr. High player with special education/developmental needs playing in a team with other players who did not. After he would foul he would ask me what he did wrong. I did answer him each time and was glad to do so!

[justacoach]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I would be willing to listen to them and if something could be fixed due to something that they pointed out, I would try to do so.
However, most calls that are "blatantly kicked" aren't fixable situations, they are just bad calls that have to be accepted as part of the game.

I would advise them to only inquire about a rule interpretation or rule enforcement situation. I would tell them to roll their eyes and not say a word about any judgment call.

My exact words to them are to "bite your tongue" and not say a word about any judgement call.
I think evan Jurassic would approve of that one.

Rolling their eyes are strictly reserved for interactions w/ mom and dad!
I think evan Jurassic would approve of that one.

I do encourage them to provide appropriate hints in the case of improper rules interps/enforcement.

Here's an example...
OOB play, Bonus in effect both ways. B2 is pushed by A3, whistle and foul called on A3. Official starts to administer throw-in for B. Time-out is granted and captain approaches U2 and remarks "No team control on throw-in, we should be shooting FT for bonus" U2 stays with the call but goes tp ask U1 who also upholds the throw-in decision. Finally R approaches and decides to award FT.
Justice (and diplomacy) prevails.

This invites another question for you good folks...
Is this sitch correctable under 2-10 and what are the applicable timelines involved as to clock running or not?

Thanks

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by justacoach

1) My exact words to them are to "bite your tongue" and not say a word about any judgement call.
I think evan Jurassic would approve of that one.

2) Rolling their eyes are strictly reserved for interactions w/ mom and dad!
I do
I think evan Jurassic would approve of that one.
I do encourage them to provide appropriate hints in the case of improper rules interps/enforcement.

3)Here's an example...
OOB play, Bonus in effect both ways. B2 is pushed by A3, whistle and foul called on A3. Official starts to administer throw-in for B. Time-out is granted and captain approaches U2 and remarks "No team control on throw-in, we should be shooting FT for bonus" U2 stays with the call but goes tp ask U1 who also upholds the throw-in decision. Finally R approaches and decides to award FT.
Justice (and diplomacy) prevails.

This invites another question for you good folks...
Is this sitch correctable under 2-10 and what are the applicable timelines involved as to clock running or not?

1) Just for the record, I don't think that there's anything the matter with any player on the floor going to an official and politely asking them for an explanation. That player should get their explanation.

2) "Rolling the eyes" isn't asking for an explanation. It's publicly passing judgment on a call, and also showing everybody that the official's judgment was wrong.

3) Yes, it's correctable under 2-10-1(a)-"failure to award a merited free throw." All correctable errors must be caught by the first dead ball after the clock has properly started. So, in this case, there's no problem correcting it because the clock never did start. Even if the throw-in had been administered and the clock had started, the call could still be corrected up to and during the next dead ball.

[justacoach]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

2) "Rolling the eyes" isn't asking for an explanation. It's publicly passing judgment on a call, and also showing everybody that the official's judgment was wrong.

Originally Posted by Justacoach

2) Rolling their eyes are strictly reserved for interactions w/ mom and dad!

I certainly don't condone disrespectful gestures or body language. About the only time they would pose a question would be in a rhetorical fashion in the face of an obvious boot.

Surely it is such a rare occurrence that a HS player has even half a clue as to the proper application of the rules that most of us would be awestruck!!

[justacoach]

Originally Posted by SMEngmann

Your sons should concentrate on being players when they are playing. As a player, you can't control the decisions that officials make, regardless of how long you've been reffing or how knowledgable you are. It's hard enough to focus on playing the game let alone to referee while playing. Trying to gain some sort of an edge on the referees at that level will detract from the level of focus needed on playing.

Lastly, if your sons are officiating, they should know that they have different angles on plays than the referees and know that we will miss some plays. The best thing they could do as captains is to keep their teammates under control and focused on the game rather than the officiating. Anytime a player or a team becomes fixated or distracted by the officiating, or other factors beyond their control, it usually leads to negative results for them.

I am in complete agreement that there is no justification to be second guessing judgement calls, and all such efforts are counter productive. On the other hand, if a blatantly erroneous rules application can be avoided, their instincts are to provide the officials the concise rules citation for the situation. I think most officials with an ounce of integrity would value the right info regardless of its source.

[justacoach]

Originally Posted by ChrisSportsFan

I do not advise them asking about a judgment call. However, I have no problem with them telling me something like: "could you watch their screens? I'm not sure they are staying set" or "my post player said #54 is holding his jersey during post play, could you please take a look at it?"
Others have also stated that if he is spending any energy worrying about the officials, he is not going to be the player his team needs him to be.

My Son has also started officiating and this is the exact advice I gave him. I believe being an official has helped him be a better player and vis-a-versa.

Great to hear about your son embarking on his officiating career. I get immense satisfaction partnering with my boys and watching from the stands while they manage a fast paced, pressure cooker game. I hope you are able to experience this unique pleasure soon and often.

I concur that judgement calls are off limits but many times an explanation given in response to a respectful question may provide for a teaching opportunity.

When my younger son was 10, he was called for a block. When he asked the ref what happened he was told he didn't give the dribbler a step and, even though he had good position that he was leaning backward and did not justify a charge.

My son's response was short and sweet 4---23---3

This official has since progressed to earn his Varsity stripes and we rehash that incident every time we meet. He refers to my son as his personal rules guru.

By the same token, my sons know the pat response to

Originally Posted by ChrisSportsFan

"could you watch their screens? I'm not sure they are staying set" or "my post player said #54 is holding his jersey during post play, could you please take a look at it?"

If they are going to engage in a tete-a-tete with a game official, it would probably be more in the vein of "Can the screener have his legs spread tthhiiiisssss wide?" or "Can you follow the airborne shooter til he lands safely?"
It would seem these are more salient comments and may lead to a better called game.

[Ref in PA]

I have said this before ... your sons are stuck the refs and their rules knowledge for the entire game. The rules knowledge of the refs will not improve during the game and may not improve before the next game. Understanding that fact will help them cope with any misapplication of any rule. If there is blatant misapplication of a rule, some refs might listen to a respectful question, but most I know will not. Your sons are going to have to read the personality of the refs on the game to know if they can be approached or not with a question.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by justacoach

When my younger son was 10, he was called for a block. When he asked the ref what happened he was told he didn't give the dribbler a step and, even though he had good position that he was leaning backward and did not justify a charge.

My son's response was short and sweet 4---23---3

Nobody likes a smart a$$. I would never encourage my child or congratulate her in a situation like this. I would ask her why she was engaging in a rules discussion during a game with an official. During a game, you aren't going to get the officials to change how they call a game or cause them to have a rules epiphany.

I work nothing but varsity ball these days and, to be honest, I can't remember who the captains are 5 minutes after the meeting. It's why I circle the captains' numbers in the book, just in case I need them later. In 20+ years, I've never gone back and looked for those numbers, but I have them, if needed.

I treat all players with the same respect they show me. They are welcome to talk to me anytime, but like I told the "captain" who wanted to whine about a block/charge and after I told him that we'll decide, not him, said, "but I'm a captain" -- being a captain doesn't give you a special right to whine and complain when you don't like a call.

[Big2Cat]

I officiate and still play in leagues. The only things I would ever bring to an officials attention are fixable things. For instance, we had an official blow his whistle on a loose ball (inadvertant), then tried to pretend it didn't happen, then tried to give it to the team that was closer to the ball.

Also, they might do other procedures incorrectly, and I will ask about those things--and don't feel bad for doing so. The handbook says that coaches, players, and officials should all know the rules. Nothing wrong with pointing out a specific rule.

Now, I don't go overboard with it, and I certainly don't get into judgment calls. If he says it is off me and I didn't touch it--nothing I can do about it. (Although if he says it is off the other team and I touched it last, I can tell him that.)

Anyhow, it is knowing what things they can bring up and what they can't. Most players don't know the rules, even the most basic things, so it would be a shock to an official that a player actually knows the rules. It is all in what is brought up and how. Leave emotions out if you disagree.

[coach41]

I also still play in leagues as well. One big difference in the leagues I play in are that we don't have many "professional" referees. The leagues have players ref the games instead. It's not to save money, but really to have players learn how hard it is to ref so they will WHINE less.

Personally, I think it's funny that I'm considered the "professional" ref in the leagues I play in. I consider myself just your regular "average Joe" ref. However, I guess in sheer numbers of games worked, I am a professional ref.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Yep. One of the 1,029 Yiddish terms for the male anatomy. Now that's impressive.

Especially since they go to such great lengths....errr...they try so hard...i mean they cut no corners...hmmm...let's just say they are stiffly opposed to leaving no schmeckle unscarrred.