Officials as players

[justacoach]

My 2 sons, 14 and 16, play for their HS JV and V teams. They are also state patched officials and still officiate in a highly competitive youth league. They are thoroughly grounded in the FED rules and their practical application.

As captains, they have the prerogative to speak to the officials at appropriate times during the course of the game.

They don't identify themselves as officials except by using the vernacular common to our profession.

What would be the proper approach when intelligently asking officials about blatantly kicked calls or obvious mis-applications of the rules?

I have instilled my philosophy in them but am seeking your opinions

How many of you would even give them the time of day?

As usual, all meaningful responses appreciated

[Nevadaref]

I would be willing to listen to them and if something could be fixed due to something that they pointed out, I would try to do so.
However, most calls that are "blatantly kicked" aren't fixable situations, they are just bad calls that have to be accepted as part of the game.

I would advise them to only inquire about a rule interpretation or rule enforcement situation. I would tell them to roll their eyes and not say a word about any judgment call.

[SMEngmann]

Your sons should concentrate on being players when they are playing. As a player, you can't control the decisions that officials make, regardless of how long you've been reffing or how knowledgable you are. It's hard enough to focus on playing the game let alone to referee while playing. Trying to gain some sort of an edge on the referees at that level will detract from the level of focus needed on playing.

Lastly, if your sons are officiating, they should know that they have different angles on plays than the referees and know that we will miss some plays. The best thing they could do as captains is to keep their teammates under control and focused on the game rather than the officiating. Anytime a player or a team becomes fixated or distracted by the officiating, or other factors beyond their control, it usually leads to negative results for them.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by SMEngmann

Your sons should concentrate on being players when they are playing. As a player, you can't control the decisions that officials make, regardless of how long you've been reffing or how knowledgable you are. It's hard enough to focus on playing the game let alone to referee while playing. Trying to gain some sort of an edge on the referees at that level will detract from the level of focus needed on playing.

Lastly, if your sons are officiating, they should know that they have different angles on plays than the referees and know that we will miss some plays. The best thing they could do as captains is to keep their teammates under control and focused on the game rather than the officiating. Anytime a player or a team becomes fixated or distracted by the officiating, or other factors beyond their control, it usually leads to negative results for them.

Excellent advice imo.

[justacoach]

Originally Posted by SMEngmann

Your sons should concentrate on being players when they are playing. As a player, you can't control the decisions that officials make, regardless of how long you've been reffing or how knowledgable you are. It's hard enough to focus on playing the game let alone to referee while playing. Trying to gain some sort of an edge on the referees at that level will detract from the level of focus needed on playing.

Lastly, if your sons are officiating, they should know that they have different angles on plays than the referees and know that we will miss some plays. The best thing they could do as captains is to keep their teammates under control and focused on the game rather than the officiating. Anytime a player or a team becomes fixated or distracted by the officiating, or other factors beyond their control, it usually leads to negative results for them.

I am in complete agreement that there is no justification to be second guessing judgement calls, and all such efforts are counter productive. On the other hand, if a blatantly erroneous rules application can be avoided, their instincts are to provide the officials the concise rules citation for the situation. I think most officials with an ounce of integrity would value the right info regardless of its source.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I would advise them to only inquire about a rule interpretation or rule enforcement situation. I would tell them to roll their eyes and not say a word about any judgment call.

And if they rolled their eyes at me, they sureashell wouldn't be getting any answers from me later on re: rules interpretations/enforcement either. And if they asked why they weren't gonna get an answer, they'd hear "Why do you want an answer? So that you can roll your eyes again and show everybody in the gym what a doofus I am?"

Great advice, Nevada. Advise players to openly show their disgust at an official's call. Heckuva idea.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

And if they rolled their eyes at me, they sureashell wouldn't be getting any answers from me later on re: rules interpretations/enforcement either. And if they asked why they weren't gonna get an answer, they'd hear "Why do you want an answer? So that you can roll your eyes again and show everybody in the gym what a doofus I am?"

Great advice, Nevada. Advise players to openly show their disgust at an official's call. Heckuva idea.

Human emotion is heavily involved in contests and if the method used to avoid speaking to officials about judgments that are very different from the norm, then I say go for it. The captain in this case is then doing the proper thing: avoiding a discussion about judgment while still venting his emotion.

If an official can't handle a V player rolling his eyes, maybe he should be officiate tidleywinks.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Human emotion is heavily involved in contests and if the method used to avoid speaking to officials about judgments that are very different from the norm, then I say go for it. The captain in this case is then doing the proper thing: avoiding a discussion about judgment while still venting his emotion.

If an official can't handle a V player rolling his eyes, maybe he should be officiate tidleywinks.

Oh? Do you let 'em jump up and down as long as they don't say anything? Throw their arms up in the air? Smack walls? Kick chairs? Is that all OK as long as they're not saying anything but just "venting their emotions"?

Hey, if you want to let the l'il sh!ts make you look like a schvantz, be my guest. I'm not, and I never have been, into letting ballplayers make me look like an idiot.

Note that I didn't say that you should nail them with a "T". I said that you show them the same respect that they showed you. Which is none!

[JugglingReferee]

To answer your specific questions...

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Oh? Do you let 'em jump up and down as long as they don't say anything? Throw their arms up in the air? Smack walls? Kick chairs? Is that all OK as long as they're not saying anything but just "venting their emotions"?

No. No. No. No.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Hey, if you want to let the l'il sh!ts make you look like a schvantz, be my guest. I'm not, and I never have been, into letting ballplayers make me look like an idiot.

Note that I didn't say that you should nail them with a "T". I said that you show them the same respect that they showed you. Which is none!

There's a far cry between a player rolling their eyes, which is highly likely that few people will see compared to that player who goes to the endline and smacking the wall in a high school gym. If you feel that the rolling of the eyes should be addressed, then a quick conversation with him/her or their coach has always worked for me.

As for people talking to me, I don't care if I've previously T'd them up or used a preventative officiating technique: if they ask in a polite and respectful manner, they get my attention. That's how do I my job: with integrity.

Edit: or, not of.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Hey, if you want to let the l'il sh!ts make you look like a schvantz, be my guest.

Wow! A Yiddish reference. I'm impressed!

[refnrev]

[QUOTE=JRutledge]This is why he needs to stick to quoting rules....
___________________________________

But Rut, give credit where it's due. The guy can seriously quote rules.
I don't know about the rest of you, but I've only had a captain ask about a call once and that was when the ball got stuck onthe dribbler's hip and I had a travel. The one exception was an 8th garde Jr. High player with special education/developmental needs playing in a team with other players who did not. After he would foul he would ask me what he did wrong. I did answer him each time and was glad to do so!

[justacoach]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I would be willing to listen to them and if something could be fixed due to something that they pointed out, I would try to do so.
However, most calls that are "blatantly kicked" aren't fixable situations, they are just bad calls that have to be accepted as part of the game.

I would advise them to only inquire about a rule interpretation or rule enforcement situation. I would tell them to roll their eyes and not say a word about any judgment call.

My exact words to them are to "bite your tongue" and not say a word about any judgement call.
I think evan Jurassic would approve of that one.

Rolling their eyes are strictly reserved for interactions w/ mom and dad!
I think evan Jurassic would approve of that one.

I do encourage them to provide appropriate hints in the case of improper rules interps/enforcement.

Here's an example...
OOB play, Bonus in effect both ways. B2 is pushed by A3, whistle and foul called on A3. Official starts to administer throw-in for B. Time-out is granted and captain approaches U2 and remarks "No team control on throw-in, we should be shooting FT for bonus" U2 stays with the call but goes tp ask U1 who also upholds the throw-in decision. Finally R approaches and decides to award FT.
Justice (and diplomacy) prevails.

This invites another question for you good folks...
Is this sitch correctable under 2-10 and what are the applicable timelines involved as to clock running or not?

Thanks

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by justacoach

1) My exact words to them are to "bite your tongue" and not say a word about any judgement call.
I think evan Jurassic would approve of that one.

2) Rolling their eyes are strictly reserved for interactions w/ mom and dad!
I do
I think evan Jurassic would approve of that one.
I do encourage them to provide appropriate hints in the case of improper rules interps/enforcement.

3)Here's an example...
OOB play, Bonus in effect both ways. B2 is pushed by A3, whistle and foul called on A3. Official starts to administer throw-in for B. Time-out is granted and captain approaches U2 and remarks "No team control on throw-in, we should be shooting FT for bonus" U2 stays with the call but goes tp ask U1 who also upholds the throw-in decision. Finally R approaches and decides to award FT.
Justice (and diplomacy) prevails.

This invites another question for you good folks...
Is this sitch correctable under 2-10 and what are the applicable timelines involved as to clock running or not?

1) Just for the record, I don't think that there's anything the matter with any player on the floor going to an official and politely asking them for an explanation. That player should get their explanation.

2) "Rolling the eyes" isn't asking for an explanation. It's publicly passing judgment on a call, and also showing everybody that the official's judgment was wrong.

3) Yes, it's correctable under 2-10-1(a)-"failure to award a merited free throw." All correctable errors must be caught by the first dead ball after the clock has properly started. So, in this case, there's no problem correcting it because the clock never did start. Even if the throw-in had been administered and the clock had started, the call could still be corrected up to and during the next dead ball.

[justacoach]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

2) "Rolling the eyes" isn't asking for an explanation. It's publicly passing judgment on a call, and also showing everybody that the official's judgment was wrong.

Originally Posted by Justacoach

2) Rolling their eyes are strictly reserved for interactions w/ mom and dad!

I certainly don't condone disrespectful gestures or body language. About the only time they would pose a question would be in a rhetorical fashion in the face of an obvious boot.

Surely it is such a rare occurrence that a HS player has even half a clue as to the proper application of the rules that most of us would be awestruck!!

[ChrisSportsFan]

I think your Sons should remember the tone they prefer to have someone come to them with if they need to approach an official.
I do not advise them asking about a judgment call. However, I have no problem with them telling me something like: "could you watch their screens? I'm not sure they are staying set" or "my post player said #54 is holding his jersey during post play, could you please take a look at it?"
Others have also stated that if he is spending any energy worrying about the officials, he is not going to be the player his team needs him to be.

My Son has also started officiating and this is the exact advice I gave him. I believe being an official has helped him be a better player and vis-a-versa.