Is it a foul?

[Oz Referee]

To foul, or not to foul, that is the question. The hand is part of the ball , but is the ball part of the hand? Can you "punch" someone using the ball?

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Slider
Then if I play defense and displace an airborne shooter by pushing on his jersey (while he is properly wearing it); there is no foul, correct?

I've read some stupid posts in my life but that may the stupidest reply I've ever read.

[Slider]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
I've read some stupid posts in my life but that may the stupidest reply I've ever read.

Actually, I can come up with much stupider stuff than that

Based on your reply, I'm guessing that you would have a foul on my push (you rarely answer me directly).

Anyway, I was making a point:

If a body is the immediate motive force behind the actions of an object (like apparel, the ball, ect.); then the motive force, i.e., the player, is responsible for illegal contact when extending his reach thru the object.

[crew]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

Exactly. You have to judge whether a rule has been broken or not. Which rule? Which rule allows a foul to be called without contact by a player?

if am am a1 and you are b1 and take the ball and press it into your face to create space for a shot this would be a foul, would it not.
or if i take the ball and bop you on top of your head while you are in a low stance for guarding purposes this would also be a foul.
it is not an extremely difficult concept that tharbert is addressing.
as to the original play that fisherj asked i would not call a foul.

[BigJoe]

According to the initial question, the way I see it the ball was pushed back onto the head of the shooter. This would require the hand of the defender to be directly on the top of the ball from the initial block of the ball downt to his head. This would constitute an immediate jump ball call. This is a call that officials have to be aware of and make an immediate call. I've seen this call missed several times and a travel has resulted. So in my humble opinion an immediate whistle for a jump would have prevented the continued play into the players head.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by crew

if am am a1 and you are b1 and take the ball and press it into your face to create space for a shot this would be a foul, would it not.
or if i take the ball and bop you on top of your head while you are in a low stance for guarding purposes this would also be a foul.

If you take the ball and intentionally pressed it to an opponent's face or you intentioanlly "bop" an opponent on the head with the ball, I'm probably going to have a T for unsporting conduct. Stick a ball in an opponent's chest to make space and that opponent is going to grab the ball, held ball.

But I do not have a personal foul. A personal foul requires illegal contact between 2 opponents, not between an opponent and the ball.

In the original play, we agree. I do not have a foul.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by Oz Referee
To foul, or not to foul, that is the question. The hand is part of the ball , but is the ball part of the hand? Can you "punch" someone using the ball?

Perhaps, "Fair is foul, foul is fair?"

No, wait - that's for the baseball board .

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Slider
Actually, I can come up with much stupider stuff than that

I can hardly wait!

Based on your reply, I'm guessing that you would have a foul on my push (you rarely answer me directly).

Yes, I would have a foul. You're not using the jersey to push me. You're using your hand. The foul doesn't have to be "skin to skin" as you stated earlier. If you stick the ball in my chest, I'm simply going to grab it.

No, I do answer you directly. But you don't usually agree with me, so you pretend to not understand what I'm saying.

Anyway, I was making a point:

If a body is the immediate motive force behind the actions of an object (like apparel, the ball, ect.); then the motive force, i.e., the player, is responsible for illegal contact when extending his reach thru the object.

I guess we'll just have to disagree, unless you can't present a rule or case play.

[Slider]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
Yes, I would have a foul. You're not using the jersey to push me. You're using your hand. The foul doesn't have to be "skin to skin" as you stated earlier. If you stick the ball in my chest, I'm simply going to grab it.

If someone plays great position defense; they do everything right in the official's eyes; you want to punish that player when they jump vertically, arms vertical, by letting a shooter push them away with the ball in order to get off a shot.

I can't give you a definitive example in a Case; nor can you give me a Case that excludes non-body contact from being called a contact foul. If ruling non-body contact as a foul isn't disallowed, then I believe calling it as a personal foul is allowed.

[Ralph Stubenthal]

Originally posted by Slider

Then if I play defense and displace an airborne shooter by pushing on his jersey (while he is properly wearing it); there is no foul, correct?

[Edited by Slider on Feb 4th, 2002 at 11:52 PM]

OOOOOH! I tend to agree with you Slider. If a player is intentionally pushing a player it doesn't matter if he is using his hand or the ball. If he uses illegal contact to dislodge an opponent such that he takes an advantage--foul. I saw something one time where B1 on defense came charging into the paint and ran into B2 and forced him into the shooter, A1. I don't know if I was right or not but I called the foul on B1 even though the contact was made by B2. There was much traffic in the paint and possibly for that reason, there were no complaints about the call.

But, about the original question, where the blocked shot was all ball, no foul. If the player that blocked the shot was so very aggressive and if you are sure that he intentionally tried to stuff it down the shooter's throat, an intentional technical could be called for unsportsmanlike conduct but it would have to be done on only the rarest of occasions. I've sure never seen it done.

[Ralph Stubenthal]

I just thought of something else. Envision a situation where you have a huge Dick Butkus size player on one team who receives a pass on offense under his basket. He has hands like a steel vice and he is being defended by a skinny kid much taller than he is. So he takes the ball in both hands and pushes very forcibly into the chest of the skinny defender and shoves him back 2 feet and then shoots the easy jumper. The only thing that ever touched the defender was the ball. I got player control every time.

[fisherj]

A1 drives to the basket and picks up the dribble, looses control of the ball prior to impacting and dislodging legally positioned B1, all contact on B1 was ball and A1 did not have either hand on the ball. The ball transfered the impact between the bodies of the players. Had A1 been in control it is a charge all the way. What do I have.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by fisherj

A1 drives to the basket and picks up the dribble, looses control of the ball prior to impacting and dislodging legally positioned B1, all contact on B1 was ball and A1 did not have either hand on the ball. The ball transfered the impact between the bodies of the players. Had A1 been in control it is a charge all the way. What do I have.

I don't know what you have but I have a headache.

Anyway (I'm regretting this already) I find it almost
impossible to believe that out of control A1 could dislodge
B1 without there being *some* kind of body contact.
Depending on what you mean by "looses control of the ball"
I have a non-PC charge or a PC on A1. Or maybe a no call.
Anyone going to just go for the travel and be done with it?

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Ralph Stubenthal
I just thought of something else. Envision a situation where you have a huge Dick Butkus size player on one team who receives a pass on offense under his basket. He has hands like a steel vice and he is being defended by a skinny kid much taller than he is. So he takes the ball in both hands and pushes very forcibly into the chest of the skinny defender and shoves him back 2 feet and then shoots the easy jumper. The only thing that ever touched the defender was the ball. I got player control every time.

This would either be an intentional or a T in my book, every time. It's "excessive contact" or it's "unsporting". It would depend on how the game and this player's attitude had gone thus far.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Slider
If someone plays great position defense; they do everything right in the official's eyes; you want to punish that player when they jump vertically, arms vertical, by letting a shooter push them away with the ball in order to get off a shot.

This isn't "great position defense." Great defense would be grabbing the ball as the shooter is handing it to you, thus getting a jump or even a steal.