H.S. Indirect Technical Foul

[TRef21]

3:30 left in the 2nd quarter team A calls timeout. After the expiration of the timeout Team A inbounds the ball at there baseline. Team B coach is telling the official that there are only 4 players on the floor while the ball is already in play.
Team A puts up the shot sinks it. The trail official whose back is turned to the the team A bench sees a player just run on the court and goes right by him. The official blows the whistle and assess an indirect technical foul, for the illegal substitution. Team B coach starts saying he was already a starter and he can legally enter the game if four guys are on the playing court while the ball is live
(shows how much the coach knows the rules). He said that the official never saw the player run on from the bench. So the official goes to the able and the scorer, and both books say he ran on. The Crew chief comes over and tells the official, since you didn't have definite knowledge we can't assess it. The official had checked with the table personal, an extension of the officiating crew as well. The crew chief still doesn't penalize the illegal substitution. What is the correct ruling? Indirect Technical foul for the illegal substution or leave it alone since neither official say it with their own eyes.
you make the call..........

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

NevadaRef:

I am up this early because I can't sleep because of a head cold. This one takes too much thinking to answer, I will defer to a younger more fit official like you to answer it. It looks like Tommy had a rough night last night.

MTD, Sr.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by TRef21

3:30 left in the 2nd quarter team A calls timeout. After the expiration of the timeout Team A inbounds the ball at there baseline. Team B coach is telling the official that there are only 4 players on the floor while the ball is already in play.
Team A puts up the shot sinks it. The trail official whose back is turned to the the team A bench sees a player just run on the court and goes right by him. The official blows the whistle and assess an indirect technical foul, for the illegal substitution. Team B coach starts saying he was already a starter and he can legally enter the game if four guys are on the playing court while the ball is live
(shows how much the coach knows the rules). He said that the official never saw the player run on from the bench. So the official goes to the able and the scorer, and both books say he ran on. The Crew chief comes over and tells the official, since you didn't have definite knowledge we can't assess it. The official had checked with the table personal, an extension of the officiating crew as well. The crew chief still doesn't penalize the illegal substitution. What is the correct ruling? Indirect Technical foul for the illegal substution or leave it alone since neither official say it with their own eyes.
you make the call..........

Actually the coach isn't that far off here. If this had been a substitution situation instead of a time-out, then he would have been right!

Are you sure that you know the details of this one?
Your post contains some serious inaccuracies.
This is NOT an indirect to anyone and it's NOT an illegal substitution.

2007-08 Basketball Rules Interpretations
SITUATION 12: Following a (a) charged time-out; or (b) a lengthy substitution process involving multiple substitutions for both teams, A5 goes to the bench and remains there mistakenly believing he/she has been replaced by a substitute. The ball is put in play even though Team A has only four players on the court. Team A is bringing the ball into A's frontcourt when the coach of Team A realizes they have only four players. The coach yells for A5 to return, and he/she sprints onto the court and catches up with play. RULING: In (a), the officials shall stop play and assess a team technical foul for not having all players return to the court at approximately the same time after a time-out. The technical foul counts toward the team-foul count. In (b), the officials may permit play to continue without penalty. A5's return to the court was not deceitful, nor did it provide A5 an unfair positioning advantage on the court. COMMENT: Even though neither situation provided A5 or Team A with an advantage, teams are expected to return to the court at approximately the same time following a time-out. The officials should have also followed the prescribed mechanics and counted the number of players on the court, ensuring each team has the legal number of players. (10-1-9; 10-3-3)


It doesn't really matter that the official didn't see the 5th player run on late, it is only important to know that he didn't return at the same time as his teammates. That's a TEAM technical foul.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

NevadaRef:

I am up this early because I can't sleep because of a head cold. This one takes too much thinking to answer, I will defer to a younger more fit official like you to answer it. It looks like Tommy had a rough night last night.

MTD, Sr.

Right on top it, my man.

[TRef21]

na it wasn't a rough night. Here is what happend after the timeout team had 4 players on the floor and the ball was put in play. Team a shoots and scores and then with my back turned to the bench, I see this guy come off of know where. So i tech him from illegal substituion. Coach aruges saying that I need definte knowledge so i go to the table and all three said he ran on to the court. My crew chief says we need definte knowledge. I was like i checked with the table which is an extension of us and they all said. He still disagreed then he said I was right. I knew i was right so i dont know why he did that. My h.s. career is ticking down fellas. I'm just gonna stay at the college level, all this rule differences give me a head ache

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by TRef21

na it wasn't a rough night. Here is what happend after the timeout team had 4 players on the floor and the ball was put in play. Team a shoots and scores and then with my back turned to the bench, I see this guy come off of know where. So i tech him from illegal substituion. Coach aruges saying that I need definte knowledge so i go to the table and all three said he ran on to the court. My crew chief says we need definte knowledge. I was like i checked with the table which is an extension of us and they all said. He still disagreed then he said I was right. I knew i was right so i dont know why he did that. My h.s. career is ticking down fellas. I'm just gonna stay at the college level, all this rule differences give me a head ache

In that case, Tommy, best wishes and hit the books hard because if you have an oddball situation such as this at the college level and don't handle it correctly, your college career will come to an end after only a few ticks!

Red highlighting for those who can't stand this use of the word "like."

[TRef21]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

In that case, Tommy, best wishes and hit the books hard because if you have an oddball situation such as this at the college level and don't handle it correctly, your college career will come to an end after only a few ticks!

Red highlighting for those who can't stand this use of the word "like."

Na!!! I was just frustrated bro. I love h.s. ball still....

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by TRef21

I'm just gonna stay at the college level, all this rule differences give me a head ache

Well, one of the biggest differences (and, IMO, easiest to remember in the HS level) is that there is no such thing as a free-standing indirect T in NFHS rules. An indirect T is only assessed to the HC and only when a direct T has been assessed to someone else (i.e., bench personnel).

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by TRef21

3:30 left in the 2nd quarter team A calls timeout.

It seems my work is never done.

[Kelvin green]

The rule that has been provided is 100% correct that this is a T for not bringing everyone at approximately the same time...

Now go tell Team A Coach...

"I did not count the number of players on the floor (like we always talk about in our pregame) and let you start with 4 guys. Since I did not do my job the way we have been taught I am going to stick you with a technical foul, have the other team shoot to shots, and put you one step closer to the bonus for this half"

Preventive Officiating and counting the players before putting the ball in play would have stopped this long before you ever got far enough to decide if there was a T

My second question is... If you did not count the players, then you really did not know where the player was...

How do you know that he ran from out of the bench area, and was not on the floor still talking with the coach in front of the bench?....and that the way he ran on the floor, he ran past the scorer's table caught them by surprise but did not know where he really came from?

I hate giving T's when we mess up

[TRef21]

Well the coach shoot himself in the foot by saying he can run in time. So there is the proof that he did. PLus all 3 table personal saw him run in from the bench with out. They didn't guess.

Tommy

Originally Posted by Kelvin green

The rule that has been provided is 100% correct that this is a T for not bringing everyone at approximately the same time...

Now go tell Team A Coach...

"I did not count the number of players on the floor (like we always talk about in our pregame) and let you start with 4 guys. Since I did not do my job the way we have been taught I am going to stick you with a technical foul, have the other team shoot to shots, and put you one step closer to the bonus for this half"

Preventive Officiating and counting the players before putting the ball in play would have stopped this long before you ever got far enough to decide if there was a T

My second question is... If you did not count the players, then you really did not know where the player was...

How do you know that he ran from out of the bench area, and was not on the floor still talking with the coach in front of the bench?....and that the way he ran on the floor, he ran past the scorer's table caught them by surprise but did not know where he really came from?

I hate giving T's when we mess up

[Kelvin green]

So the coach admitted it and the table saw it... The table does not assist in the calling of fouls....

My point is all of this mess can be prevented by the officials by counting