Throwing Clipboard

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by kbilla

A coach screams "F**K!" from his bench. Come on your's & Rut's points are well taken that nothing is an automatic that you must always use judgement in every case, but can you think of a situation where you wouldn't tech that? I guess maybe if his response was to the gym being set on fire I might let it slide....

Yes I could. And yes I have not given a T when I heard something from the bench. And yes it depended on where I was officiating. I can tell you if I were to go into Chicago and gave a T for every bad word on first incident, the bench would be cleared and the two teams would be forfeited (and I am not talking about inner city schools, the Catholic schools are bigger culprits of the language issue).

Peace

[kbilla]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Yes I could. And yes I have not given a T when I heard something from the bench. And yes it depended on where I was officiating. I can tell you if I were to go into Chicago and gave a T for every bad word on first incident, the bench would be cleared and the two teams would be forfeited (and I am not talking about inner city schools, the Catholic schools are bigger culprits of the language issue).

Peace

I'm not saying someone just "said" "f**k", I'm talking screamed at the top of their lungs "F********K!!!!" (and stomped their feet for good measure ) I have never had it happen, but I would think I wouldn't think twice or consider where I was or why it happened...how about a coach grabs a player he is pissed off at for whatever reason, grabs him by the shirt and throws him over the bench Bobby Knight style...or while we are on the subject throws a chair across the floor?!?! Like I said your point is well taken, but there are certain cases where you are not going to have to use a whole lot of judgement b/c the action stands pretty well on its own don't you think?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by kbilla

I'm not saying someone just "said" "f**k", I'm talking screamed at the top of their lungs "F********K!!!!" (and stomped their feet for good measure ) I have never had it happen, but I would think I wouldn't think twice or consider where I was or why it happened...how about a coach grabs a player he is pissed off at for whatever reason, grabs him by the shirt and throws him over the bench Bobby Knight style...or while we are on the subject throws a chair across the floor?!?! Like I said your point is well taken, but there are certain cases where you are not going to have to use a whole lot of judgement b/c the action stands pretty well on its own don't you think?

If you have to embellish, then that should tell you why I do not like the "automatic" label. Because what you consider screaming at the top of their lungs is not what I would consider screaming at the top of their lungs.

In my experience many of my games I cannot hear what comes out of bench area during a timeout and I am not paying that close attention to every word a coach or someone says all the time. And I will honestly tell you if I am working in certain conferences I will do one thing and working in other conferences I will do something else. I will do that because the standards and the outrage are completely different. There are some areas around here if you say "Jesus Christ" then that would be offensive. Other places it would not be (even those religious and private schools as an example).

Once again, no one said that we would not give a T for a clipboard slamming. I think we were saying there would have to be some judgment and evaluation of the situation. It might likely end up that way, I just have a problem with the word "automatic" when these situations are often not so black and white.

Peace

[w_sohl]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

when these situations are often not so black and white.

Peace

Why does it have to be a black white thing Rut?

[JRutledge]

You would not understand.

Peace

[reddevil19]

During my time coaching at the HS Frosh level, I always wondered why some officials seemed to be so concerned about what I was saying or doing to people other than them during a game, especially during a live ball. I was T'd once for saying "d*mmit" to a player on my bench, with my back turned away from the court, while the other team was in the process of making a lay-up.

I was T'd once for flipping my clipboard over my shoulder, with no verbal comment, where there wasn't even a remotely possible officiating-related reason for doing it, after my player did exactly the opposite of what he was instructed for the 63rd time that game. We had an empty bench area, and the clipboard landed in a pile of player bags never made a sound, but I got T'd, during a fast break by the opposition (boy was my counterpart ticked when they stopped that to T me, and then the kid missed his FT's! )

I've even saw during a JC game where I do PA announcing last year, a ref stop to badger a coach who dropped an F-bomb on his adult players, but only loud enough to be heard within 5 feet. The ref started an argument with the coach while the ball was in play, at a JC game!

It seems to me that at HS and above, unless it's blatantly unsportmanlike, or directly addressed at an official, or causes a safety hazard, there shouldn't be a lot of mind paid to things like flipped clipboards and the like. If a coach is making as *** of him/herself, let their Administrator deal with it, especially while the ball is in play. My .02.

[JRutledge]

Let me stop you right there. If you do not want to the official to say anything to you, do not say something that can be heard. Now that does not mean that some officials might not worry that much about what you say, but that does not give you the right to have anything come out of your mouth either. And that certainly applies to how you address officials and the antics you display. And yes, even with adult player that does not give you the right to say anything. It might mean you get more leeway, but it does not give you the right to say anything.

Peace

[IREFU2]

Originally Posted by reddevil19

During my time coaching at the HS Frosh level, I always wondered why some officials seemed to be so concerned about what I was saying or doing to people other than them during a game, especially during a live ball. I was T'd once for saying "d*mmit" to a player on my bench, with my back turned away from the court, while the other team was in the process of making a lay-up.

I was T'd once for flipping my clipboard over my shoulder, with no verbal comment, where there wasn't even a remotely possible officiating-related reason for doing it, after my player did exactly the opposite of what he was instructed for the 63rd time that game. We had an empty bench area, and the clipboard landed in a pile of player bags never made a sound, but I got T'd, during a fast break by the opposition (boy was my counterpart ticked when they stopped that to T me, and then the kid missed his FT's! )

I've even saw during a JC game where I do PA announcing last year, a ref stop to badger a coach who dropped an F-bomb on his adult players, but only loud enough to be heard within 5 feet. The ref started an argument with the coach while the ball was in play, at a JC game!

It seems to me that at HS and above, unless it's blatantly unsportmanlike, or directly addressed at an official, or causes a safety hazard, there shouldn't be a lot of mind paid to things like flipped clipboards and the like. If a coach is making as *** of him/herself, let their Administrator deal with it, especially while the ball is in play. My .02.

Let me explain something to you....coach are suppose to be the leaders of the team as well as showing an example for their kids. If a couch hollars and screams at the officials, disrespects the officials as well as curses on the court either at the officials or not, that kind of stuff pushes of on the kids and they will have similiar attitudes. I am sure most school have a standard of conduct code and I am sure that teachers in class would not curse or throw things around in the classroom....just my 2 cents.

[tnsteele95]

Wow, this thread has me kind of shocked. I'm a new ref, however, I couldn't disagree more with anyone who thinks this doesn't deserve a T. Unless we're talking grown men here, basketball is played by kids. A lot of those kids don't have proper role models as it is. If you don't teach sportsmanlike conduct then how will the kids learn it? Therefore, when a coach is so angry over a GAME of basketball that he needs to throw objects, curse, or use any other unsportsmen like activity in front of a bunch of kids, it's definitely time for a T. And in our league, any coach that does this would be facing a dismissal hearing as a coach.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by reddevil19

During my time coaching at the HS Frosh level, I always wondered why some officials seemed to be so concerned about what I was saying or doing to people other than them during a game, especially during a live ball. I was T'd once for saying "d*mmit" to a player on my bench, with my back turned away from the court, while the other team was in the process of making a lay-up.

I don't know about other states, but Colorado has explicitly followed the NFHS guideline, and isntructed the officials to call all profanity, even if directed at players. So yes, coaches do need to watch what they say to their players.

That said, at most, "dammit" might earn a quick chat depending on how loud it was uttered.

Do I think we have

Originally Posted by reddevil19

I was T'd once for flipping my clipboard over my shoulder, with no verbal comment, where there wasn't even a remotely possible officiating-related reason for doing it, after my player did exactly the opposite of what he was instructed for the 63rd time that game. We had an empty bench area, and the clipboard landed in a pile of player bags never made a sound, but I got T'd, during a fast break by the opposition (boy was my counterpart ticked when they stopped that to T me, and then the kid missed his FT's! )

Yeah, they missed that one. First of all, sounds like I would have let it go. However, if you'd been making a scene all game….

Also, there's a casebook play that states explicitly that the official should hold his whistle on this until after the layup; don't penalize the other team.

Originally Posted by reddevil19

It seems to me that at HS and above, unless it's blatantly unsportmanlike, or directly addressed at an official, or causes a safety hazard, there shouldn't be a lot of mind paid to things like flipped clipboards and the like. If a coach is making as *** of him/herself, let their Administrator deal with it, especially while the ball is in play. My .02.

While we may or may not agree with you, the NFHS and at least my state don't. I may think I have better things to do than nag the players about tucking their shirts in, too, but the rules committee tells me otherwise.