Throwing Clipboard

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by IREFU2

Hmmm, interesting.....you might need to think that statement over...

No, maybe you need to think about that. Officiating involves a lot of grey and just because a clipboard hits the floor might not be because he/she slammed the board onto the floor. And I could use about a 100 other examples of how this or other things I would not consider to be "automatic" from my point of view. Now if you want to say "automatic" that is your right. But when you find a situation that goes against what you believe, let me know because there are a lot of things that may happen to you that will change your mind. For me I would be more concerned as to why a coach is slamming the clipboard, not just the fact the clipboard was slammed to the floor.

Peace

[IREFU2]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

No, maybe you need to think about that. Officiating involves a lot of grey and just because a clipboard hits the floor might not be because he/she slammed the board onto the floor. And I could use about a 100 other examples of how this or other things I would not consider to be "automatic" from my point of view. Now if you want to say "automatic" that is your right. But when you find a situation that goes against what you believe, let me know because there are a lot of things that may happen to you that will change your mind. For me I would be more concerned as to why a coach is slamming the clipboard, not just the fact the clipboard was slammed to the floor.

Peace

Yeah, I guess you are right about that and circumstances would only warrant a "T" if in the officials judgement it was an act of unsportslike conduct. But the statement "Because there is no behavior or action that will "always" be a T" would be an incorrect statement in my book and the rule book.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by IREFU2

Yeah, I guess you are right about that and circumstances would only warrant a "T" if in the officials judgement it was an act of unsportslike conduct. But the statement "Because there is no behavior or action that will "always" be a T" would be an incorrect statement in my book and the rule book.

You are missing the point. Automatic means you do something without thought or judgment. Are there situations that would likely be a T? Of course there would be. But even things in the rulebook require some judgment and interpretation. I am just going to reserve some judgment and make sure I just observed what I actually observed and interpret why the action took place. Then I will make a decision. And the last time I read the rulebook, there are not many absolutes as to what is or is not a T. The rules tend to be left vague to allow for judgment to take over. For example, the rulebook says profanity is illegal. It does not specify which words are in that category.

Peace

[Adam]

Originally Posted by IREFU2

Yeah, I guess you are right about that and circumstances would only warrant a "T" if in the officials judgement it was an act of unsportslike conduct. But the statement "Because there is no behavior or action that will "always" be a T" would be an incorrect statement in my book and the rule book.

Give me an example.

[kbilla]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Give me an example.

A coach screams "F**K!" from his bench. Come on your's & Rut's points are well taken that nothing is an automatic that you must always use judgement in every case, but can you think of a situation where you wouldn't tech that? I guess maybe if his response was to the gym being set on fire I might let it slide....

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by kbilla

A coach screams "F**K!" from his bench. Come on your's & Rut's points are well taken that nothing is an automatic that you must always use judgement in every case, but can you think of a situation where you wouldn't tech that? I guess maybe if his response was to the gym being set on fire I might let it slide....

Yes I could. And yes I have not given a T when I heard something from the bench. And yes it depended on where I was officiating. I can tell you if I were to go into Chicago and gave a T for every bad word on first incident, the bench would be cleared and the two teams would be forfeited (and I am not talking about inner city schools, the Catholic schools are bigger culprits of the language issue).

Peace

[kbilla]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Yes I could. And yes I have not given a T when I heard something from the bench. And yes it depended on where I was officiating. I can tell you if I were to go into Chicago and gave a T for every bad word on first incident, the bench would be cleared and the two teams would be forfeited (and I am not talking about inner city schools, the Catholic schools are bigger culprits of the language issue).

Peace

I'm not saying someone just "said" "f**k", I'm talking screamed at the top of their lungs "F********K!!!!" (and stomped their feet for good measure ) I have never had it happen, but I would think I wouldn't think twice or consider where I was or why it happened...how about a coach grabs a player he is pissed off at for whatever reason, grabs him by the shirt and throws him over the bench Bobby Knight style...or while we are on the subject throws a chair across the floor?!?! Like I said your point is well taken, but there are certain cases where you are not going to have to use a whole lot of judgement b/c the action stands pretty well on its own don't you think?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by kbilla

I'm not saying someone just "said" "f**k", I'm talking screamed at the top of their lungs "F********K!!!!" (and stomped their feet for good measure ) I have never had it happen, but I would think I wouldn't think twice or consider where I was or why it happened...how about a coach grabs a player he is pissed off at for whatever reason, grabs him by the shirt and throws him over the bench Bobby Knight style...or while we are on the subject throws a chair across the floor?!?! Like I said your point is well taken, but there are certain cases where you are not going to have to use a whole lot of judgement b/c the action stands pretty well on its own don't you think?

If you have to embellish, then that should tell you why I do not like the "automatic" label. Because what you consider screaming at the top of their lungs is not what I would consider screaming at the top of their lungs.

In my experience many of my games I cannot hear what comes out of bench area during a timeout and I am not paying that close attention to every word a coach or someone says all the time. And I will honestly tell you if I am working in certain conferences I will do one thing and working in other conferences I will do something else. I will do that because the standards and the outrage are completely different. There are some areas around here if you say "Jesus Christ" then that would be offensive. Other places it would not be (even those religious and private schools as an example).

Once again, no one said that we would not give a T for a clipboard slamming. I think we were saying there would have to be some judgment and evaluation of the situation. It might likely end up that way, I just have a problem with the word "automatic" when these situations are often not so black and white.

Peace

[Adam]

Originally Posted by kbilla

A coach screams "F**K!" from his bench.

I'm 99% sure I'd call this, but there is still the possibility I'd let it slide. Such as?
B1 slams into the coach full speed and the coach tears a ligament in his knee.
Or, his star player slips on the water spot in front of his bench from the last timeout, and coach hears the player's bone break. I might let this one go.

[kbilla]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I'm 99% sure I'd call this, but there is still the possibility I'd let it slide. Such as?
B1 slams into the coach full speed and the coach tears a ligament in his knee.
Or, his star player slips on the water spot in front of his bench from the last timeout, and coach hears the player's bone break. I might let this one go.

Ha ha touche!! Still not convincing me on the throwing the chair across the floor thing though, that has to be automatic. Unless maybe this - coach is arachnaphobic (has doctor's note to prove it) and an opposing fan puts a big tarantula on his seat when he gets up. He sees it just as he is sitting back down.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by kbilla

Ha ha touche!! Still not convincing me on the throwing the chair across the floor thing though, that has to be automatic...

...unless a fan comes out of the stands with a knife and is about to attack an official. Coach throws chair to protect the official.

[kbilla]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I'm 99% sure I'd call this, but there is still the possibility I'd let it slide. Such as?
B1 slams into the coach full speed and the coach tears a ligament in his knee.
Or, his star player slips on the water spot in front of his bench from the last timeout, and coach hears the player's bone break. I might let this one go.

It actually brings up an interesting distinction though, I am a lot more willing to agree that no "language" infraction is automatic, but there are actions that are automatic in my opinion....flipping somebody off and I see it (what could his excuse possibly be?)....the whole throwing the chair thing....it is a lot harder to put a "spin" on an action...

Not to hijack this thread, but this makes me ask a similar question: If a coach picks up a chair and slams it straight down (not throwing it Bobby Knight style), automatic T? How about if he lifts his feet high enough and stomps down on it really hard?

Reason I ask is that Bob Erickson (now retired coach from Doane College in Nebraska) was famous for doing the aforementioned antics. Most of the officials that worked those games usually let it slide because he did it out of frustration at his own players and never because he didn't like a call by an official. However, there were a couple of officials who T'd him up the very first time he did it in their games, and a couple of others who would T him up if he did it while Doane was on defense. I'm just curious everyone's thoughts on this.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

B1 slams into the coach full speed and the coach tears a ligament in his knee.

I did have a similar action happen last season. There was a player that dislocated his knee cap while driving to the basket all by himself. When it was obvious the player was hurt, he began using a couple of profanities. We held up the game for about 20 minutes to get this kid off the court. I passed on giving the kid a T. I think that was a good decision.

Peace

[kbilla]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I did have a similar action happen last season. There was a player that dislocated his knee cap while driving to the basket all by himself. When it was obvious the player was hurt, he began using a couple of profanities. We held up the game for about 20 minutes to get this kid off the court. I passed on giving the kid a T. I think that was a good decision.

Peace

Absolutely...been there myself playing in a league on a court right next to a group of 9 year-olds practicing....not my proudest moment with some of the language that came out of my mouth, but sometimes you can't control such things...