Shot clock reset question

[BillyMac]

Shot Clock Prodecures
*Shot clock used entire game including overtimes
*Shot clock duration 35 seconds

Start Shot Clock
*Throw-In – when in-bounds player touches or is touched by ball (exception is kicked ball)
*Jump Ball – when player gains control of ball
*Missed Try - when player gains control of ball
*Missed Free Throw – when player gains control of ball
*Loose Ball - when player gains control of ball

Officials Signals
*Reset – whirling motion of a pointed index finger above head
*Violation – Official taps top of head with open palm

When To Reset
*Floor violations except kicking
*Intentionally kicked ball – reset to 15 if under 15; otherwise leave what is on clock
*Ball hits ring on try or tap – reset when team control secured
*Opponent secures control of ball
*Personal foul
*Try or tap fails to hit ring and is recovered by opponent
*Held ball – if defensive team has AP arrow
*Technical Foul

When Not To Reset
*Defensive team touches ball but does not gain control
*Defensive team causes ball to go out-of-bounds
*Defensive team cause held ball but offensive team has AP arrow
*Blocked try or tap is recovered by offensive team
*Try or tap fails to hit ring and is recovered by offensive team
*Held ball during throw-in and offensive team has AP arrow
*Time-out is granted
*Game stopped due to injury, blood rule or loss of glasses/lens
*Any shot at wrong basket

Shot Clock Responsibility
It should be a primary responsibility of the Trail official to be aware of the shot clock. The Trail should try to look at the shot clock occasionally during the entire offensive possession, especially as the possession continues for an extended period of time. This will allow the official to be prepared to rule on a possible violation, incorrect reset or the horn goes off during or before a shot is taken. It would be efficient game management if the lead also makes themself aware of the shot clock during a possession.

[Nevadaref]

Billy, where did you get that?

Did you put it together yourself or get it from one of the handful of states that use a shot clock in HS games or perhaps from some NCAA source?

[BillyMac]

IAABO—HIGH SCHOOL SHOT CLOCK OPERATOR’S INSTRUCTIONS
Prepared by the Visualization and Education Committee of the International Association of Approved Basketball Officials, Inc.

PROCEDURES
Shot clock shall be used entire game . . . including any overtime periods
Shot clock duration for 30/35 seconds per State association

START SHOT CLOCK
Throw-In: When an in-bounds player legally touches or is touched by the ball
(Exception: Kicking ball)
Jump Ball: When a player gains CONTROL of ball
Missed Try: When a player gains CONTROL of ball
Missed Free Throw: When a player gains CONTROL of ball
Loose Ball: When a player gains CONTROL of ball

OFFICIALS’ SIGNALS
RESET: A whirling motion of a pointed index finger above head
VIOLATION: Official taps top of head with open palm

WHEN TO RESET
Floor violations (except kicking)
Intentionally kicked ball: reset as per league or State association. Ball hits ring on a try or tap (shot clock stops) reset when team control acquired
Opponent secures CONTROL of the ball
Personal foul
Try/tap fails to hit ring and is recovered by opponent
Held ball (if DEFENSIVE team has A/P arrow)
Technical foul

WHEN NOT TO RESET
Defensive team touches ball, but does NOT gain CONTROL
Defensive team causes ball to go out of bounds
Defensive team causes a HELD BALL, but OFFENSIVE team has A/P arrow
Blocked tries/taps recovered by the OFFENSIVE team
Try/tap fails to hit ring and is recovered by OFFENSIVE team
Held ball during a throw-in and OFFENSIVE team has A/P arrow
Time-out is granted
Game is stopped due to injury or loss of glasses/contact lens
Game is stopped due to blood rule
Any shot at WRONG basket

ABSOLUTES
Participate with pregame meeting with referee
Be attentive, accurate and maintain focus during entire game, avoid distractions
Maintain eye contact with the official responsible for putting ball in play
Maintain an appearance of impartiality throughout the game

Rev. 9/2007

Also:
Suffolk Western Boys Basketball Officials Association website: www.leaguelineup.com/iaabo127

[BillyMac]

Here's the hybrid version:

IAABO HIGH SCHOOL SHOT CLOCK OPERATOR’S INSTRUCTIONS
Prepared by the Visualization and Education Committee of the International Association of Approved Basketball Officials, Inc.;
and Suffolk Western Boys Basketball Officials Association

Shot Clock Prodecures
Shot clock used entire game including overtimes
Shot clock duration 30/35 seconds per State Association

Start Shot Clock
Throw-In: when in-bounds player touches or is touched by ball (exception is kicked ball)
Jump Ball: when player gains control of ball
Missed Try: when player gains control of ball
Missed Free Throw: when player gains control of ball
Loose Ball: when player gains control of ball

Officials Signals
Reset: whirling motion of a pointed index finger above head
Violation: Official taps top of head with open palm

When To Reset
Floor violations except kicking
Intentionally kicked ball: reset to 15 if under 15; otherwise leave what is on clock, per league or State Association
Ball hits ring on try or tap: reset when team control secured
Opponent secures control of ball
Personal foul
Try or tap fails to hit ring and is recovered by opponent
Held ball: if defensive team has AP arrow
Technical Foul

When Not To Reset
Defensive team touches ball but does not gain control
Defensive team causes ball to go out-of-bounds
Defensive team cause held ball but offensive team has AP arrow
Blocked try or tap is recovered by offensive team
Try or tap fails to hit ring and is recovered by offensive team
Held ball during throw-in and offensive team has AP arrow
Timeout is granted
Game stopped due to injury, blood rule or loss of glasses/lens
Any shot at wrong basket

Shot Clock Responsibility
It should be a primary responsibility of the Trail official to be aware of the shot clock
The Trail should try to look at the shot clock occasionally during the entire offensive possession, especially as the
possession continues for an extended period of time. This will allow the official to be prepared to rule on a possible
violation, incorrect reset or the horn goes off during or before a shot is taken
It would be efficient game management if the lead also makes themself aware of the shot clock during a possession

Timekeeper
Participate in pregame meeting with referee
Be attentive, accurate, and maintain focus during entire game; avoid distractions
Maintain eye contact with the official putting the ball in play
Maintain an appearance of impartiallity throughout the game

Revised 9/2007

[Scrapper1]

Billy's list was put together by IAABO, for the most part. IAABO does a good job most of the time, but they primarily aim their material at high school rules and officials. But of course, there are no high school (NFHS) rules for the shot clock. So I have just a couple of corrections/comments:

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Start Shot Clock
*Loose Ball - when player gains control of ball

A little misleading. In many cases, the shot clock is already running during a loose ball. If it's running, then the determination must be whether to reset it (if the defense secures control) or simply allow it to continue (if the offense secures control). If you're talking strictly about rebounding action, then the description is correct; but obviously, there are lots of other loose ball situations.

When To Reset
*Held ball – if defensive team has AP arrow
*Technical Foul

Both of these are incorrect. The first item should read:

*Any held ball -- EXCEPTION: When there is team control and the possession arrow favors the team in control.

That is an important distinction. If a held ball occurs immediately following a try which fails to hit the ring, we will reset the shot clock, even if the arrow favors the offensive team. If there's no team control, reset it on the held ball.

The second item is almost correct for high school rules, because in high school, any single technical foul results in either a change of possession (reset) or a defensive foul (reset). But even for high school rules, it should be noted that this reset is for any SINGLE technical foul, as double technicals would go to the POI, with no reset of the shot clock.

In college games, it should read:

*A single technical foul charged to the defensive team.
*A single flagrant technical foul.
*(MEN) A single intentional technical foul.

When Not To Reset
*Defensive team cause held ball but offensive team has AP arrow

As I pointed out above, this is inaccurate.

*Any shot at wrong basket

Just for precision, I would reword this to: "Any ball thrown which contacts the opponent's basket."

As I mentioned, there simply are no NFHS rules to govern the shot clock. So if Billy's state has mandated things to be the way he typed them up, that's how he should do them. But if the original poster is doing the shot clock for an NCAA game, I hope that my comments cleared up any differences.

[Nevadaref]

Scrapper,
You are officiating a HS game that employs a shot clock. The shot clock shows 8 seconds remaining. A1 has the ball OOB for a throw-in. He holds the ball across the boundary plane and B1 creates a held ball situation.

Are you saying that the shot clock should reset?

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Scrapper,
You are officiating a HS game that employs a shot clock. The shot clock shows 8 seconds remaining. A1 has the ball OOB for a throw-in. He holds the ball across the boundary plane and B1 creates a held ball situation.

Are you saying that the shot clock should reset?

That's exactly what I was saying. Unfortunately, I was also wrong. I was focused on the fact that there's no team control. However, NCAA 2-11-7i is a specific exception to that rule. Do not reset after a simultaneous held ball during a throw-in when the alternating possession arrow favors the throw-in team.

I'll go edit that bit.

[Nevadaref]

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Scrapper,
You are officiating a HS game that employs a shot clock. The shot clock shows 8 seconds remaining. A1 has the ball OOB for a throw-in. He holds the ball across the boundary plane and B1 creates a held ball situation.

Are you saying that the shot clock should reset?

Ok, I've been doing some more thinking about this. And you're correct, that in the above situation, we would NOT reset the shot clock. We have an explicit exception for a held ball DURING THE THROW-IN.

But how about this? A1 releases the throw-in pass. It is deflected by B1, but neither team secures control. A2 and B2 simultaneously cause a held ball. The possession arrow favors Team A.

As our NFHS case plays for '07 make clear, the throw-in ends when the ball is deflected by B1. So now, in my play, we have a held ball when neither team is in control -- and it's NOT during a throw-in.

In this case, in high school only, I believe we should have a reset of the shot clock.

What do you think?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Ok, I've been doing some more thinking about this. And you're correct, that in the above situation, we would NOT reset the shot clock. We have an explicit exception for a held ball DURING THE THROW-IN.

But how about this? A1 releases the throw-in pass. It is deflected by B1, but neither team secures control. A2 and B2 simultaneously cause a held ball. The possession arrow favors Team A.

As our NFHS case plays for '07 make clear, the throw-in ends when the ball is deflected by B1. So now, in my play, we have a held ball when neither team is in control -- and it's NOT during a throw-in.

In this case, in high school only, I believe we should have a reset of the shot clock.

What do you think?

It could be either way. Since there's no shot clock under FED rules, there's no telling what any organization might be using when they implement a shot clock.

(Some might say reset on every whistle; some might say reset only when it hits the rim or when the "defense" gains control; some might say follow the NCAA rules; some might say "follow the NCAA rules and have TC apply during a throw-in"; some might say "follow all the NCAA rules and none of the FED rules")

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Since there's no shot clock under FED rules, there's no telling what any organization might be using when they implement a shot clock.

I've already acknowledged this a few times. If Billy's state says to do it that way, then that's how he should do it. I'm simply trying to apply the NCAA shot clock rules as closely as possible to high school situations. The NCAA rules say to reset the shot clock for a held ball when there's no team control, unless it's during a throw-in. I'm just trying to let that play out to picture reasonable cases of that happening.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Ok, I've been doing some more thinking about this. And you're correct, that in the above situation, we would NOT reset the shot clock. We have an explicit exception for a held ball DURING THE THROW-IN.

But how about this? A1 releases the throw-in pass. It is deflected by B1, but neither team secures control. A2 and B2 simultaneously cause a held ball. The possession arrow favors Team A.

As our NFHS case plays for '07 make clear, the throw-in ends when the ball is deflected by B1. So now, in my play, we have a held ball when neither team is in control -- and it's NOT during a throw-in.

In this case, in high school only, I believe we should have a reset of the shot clock.

What do you think?

If the play occurred during an NCAA game would one reset the shot clock?

The problem that you are having is that you are attempting to apply NCAA rules for the shot clock to the HS environment which does not match up with the NCAA rule set. In other words, I would say that one should focus upon the action and rule accordingly, not the fact that there may be a contradictory NFHS rule. If the shot clock would reset in an NCAA game, I say reset it in a HS game. If the play would not cause a reset in an NCAA game, then leave it alone in a HS game.

In summation, importing the NCAA shot clock rules to the NFHS game is impossible because not everything will matchup properly.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

The problem that you are having is that you are attempting to apply NCAA rules for the shot clock to the HS environment which does not match up with the NCAA rule set.

I realize that. I've acknowledged that reality several times already in this thread. It's not really my problem, however. It's the problem of any state that is trying to implement a shot clock while otherwise using NFHS rules.

I'm simply taking a situation and applying the NCAA shot clock rule AND the NFHS rule. No team control + not during a throw-in + held ball = reset the shot clock. That is explicit in the NCAA rules. Throw-in has ended + no player has secured control = no team control. That is explicit in NFHS rules. So what should we now do?

If the shot clock would reset in an NCAA game, I say reset it in a HS game. If the play would not cause a reset in an NCAA game, then leave it alone in a HS game.

Ok, but then you have to deliberately set aside either the shot clock rules of the NCAA or the team control rules of the NFHS. I'm not a big fan of deliberately setting aside explicit rules.

Again, I'm not trying to tell anybody how "it has to be". Each state can use whatever shot clock rules it wants to. But my guess is that most states using the shot clock simply say, "use NFHS rules, but apply the NCAA shot clock rules". In that case, you have to know what the heck the rules are. And it doesn't hurt to go through this kind of exercise ahead of time to figure out just where the two rulesets don't quite mesh.

In any case, I asked for thoughts and I got them. So thank you. I think, however, that I would be justified in resetting the shot clock in the situation that I outlined.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

I realize that. I've acknowledged that reality several times already in this thread. It's not really my problem, however. It's the problem of any state that is trying to implement a shot clock while otherwise using NFHS rules.

Yep, I agree.

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

I'm simply taking a situation and applying the NCAA shot clock rule AND the NFHS rule.

One cannot do that and expect a logical outcome. The two were simply not written to fit together. Doing that is equivalent to trying to put a round peg in a square hole.

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

No team control + not during a throw-in + held ball = reset the shot clock. That is explicit in the NCAA rules. Throw-in has ended + no player has secured control = no team control. That is explicit in NFHS rules. So what should we now do?

This is exactly the kind of unresolvable paradox that arises when one mixes rule sets.

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Ok, but then you have to deliberately set aside either the shot clock rules of the NCAA or the team control rules of the NFHS. I'm not a big fan of deliberately setting aside explicit rules.

Neither am I and I think that this is the main reason why most states don't use a shot clock in HS. If you are stuck in a situation that does, then you have to do your best. I would probably apply the NCAA shot clock rules to shot clock situations and not worry about any conflicts with other HS rules that do not pertain to the shot clock.

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Again, I'm not trying to tell anybody how "it has to be". Each state can use whatever shot clock rules it wants to. But my guess is that most states using the shot clock simply say, "use NFHS rules, but apply the NCAA shot clock rules".

Agreed. It is not our place. Each state will make their own decision. It is just unfortunate that some will state as you say without realizing that the two pieces cannot be made to fit into the same puzzle.

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

In that case, you have to know what the heck the rules are. And it doesn't hurt to go through this kind of exercise ahead of time to figure out just where the two rulesets don't quite mesh.

Preparation is always the key. One should always walk into a situation knowing what to do should such and such occur.

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

In any case, I asked for thoughts and I got them. So thank you. I think, however, that I would be justified in resetting the shot clock in the situation that I outlined.

Happy to be your study partner, but I wouldn't reset in that situation. I don't believe that is the intent of the rule.