cursing on court

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Daryl, I'm going to poke a little fun at your response to make a point. No personal affront to you or what I'm sure is your quality job of officiating.

So your stance is that unacceptable language will not be properly penalized the first time, but if uttered again a technical foul is automatic?


This leads me to ask a larger question. Why do people seem to believe that it is proper to fail to issue the proper penalties the first time that infractions of the rules are committed?

NevadaRef:

Daryl just called me. He wanted you to know that was typing out a response to your post above, when he lost his internet service. As soon as it is up and running he will respond. He has scrimmages both in the morning and the afternoon tomorrow. Better him than me. I am attend our sons' swim meet this weekend. Go Buckeyes.

MTD, Sr.

[Coltdoggs]

Take in point my T on the coach who used the term "rape" in a 3rd grade girls game a couple weeks ago to decribe the contact on a no call my partner and I had.....He got tossed and that was not cussing...

I really think it depends on the level and the sitch....I don't have as much issues with a "Damn" from a HS kid to himself after he miss a shot...but yelling DAMN! if they feel they got fouled is another thing...I'm one to try to use some preventative maintenance and talk to a player or coach if I hear it...but again, you gotta see the situation and how it's used before you say it's automatic....

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

NevadaRef:

Daryl just called me. He wanted you to know that was typing out a response to your post above, when he lost his internet service. As soon as it is up and running he will respond. He has scrimmages both in the morning and the afternoon tomorrow. Better him than me. I am attend our sons' swim meet this weekend. Go Buckeyes.

MTD, Sr.

Great, I'll look forward to it. He always has worthwhile officiating comments. It's his partner's thoughts of which we have to be suspicious.

[Mark Padgett]

My pet peeve is the yell "AND ONE" from another player or the bench when a kid is driving and gets barely touched. I worked with a guy who used to call T's in wreck games for it. He said it was the same as them yelling that he missed a call. He usually would give one warning, though.

Juulie and the rest of the Portland gang, it was the late Jeff Strother. I worked wreck games with him at The Hoop.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

My pet peeve is the yell "AND ONE" from another player or the bench when a kid is driving and gets barely touched. I worked with a guy who used to call T's in wreck games for it. He said it was the same as them yelling that he missed a call. He usually would give one warning, though.

Juulie and the rest of the Portland gang, it was the late Jeff Strother. I worked wreck games with him at The Hoop.

Just because Jeff could get away with it doesn't mean anyone else in the world could. He was in a category by himself. Don't even get me started telling Jeff Strothers stories.

[Nevadaref]

Well then how about starting with a few stories about Sally to warm you up?

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Well then how about starting with a few stories about Sally to warm you up?

Well, Sally Struthers is actually from Portland, but our ref friend spelled his name differently.

[Daryl H. Long]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Great, I'll look forward to it. He always has worthwhile officiating comments. It's his partner's thoughts of which we have to be suspicious.

Finally, internet service has been restored. I will try to be brief and clear up misconceptions. My original words were in agreement with Bob Jenkins post and that is why I quoted him.

Euphemisms: I only used this example because "cursing" is not defined in rules. Obviosly my definition is more strict than many others on this board. There are words I do not wish to hear whether on the court or anywhere for that matter. But the only way I can make this known is to let people know it offends me. Most are polite enough and refrain from using language that might offend me.

But I am not so pious that I use my own definition of cursing to determine when I will administer the T. On the court if I hear a euphemism I do not address it at all...in one ear and out the other. I have other things more important to worry about. If the "real curse" is used (yes, even the F word)in a situation that it was so softly muttered that only I heard it and it was not addressed to another player then I can indiscreetly let the player know I heard his language and to clean it up. No penalty yet as how can I prove he said it?

This now begs the question of how to handle more vocal curses. My only options are to warn before giving T or give T with no warning. There is no doubt we hear things on the court that players say out loud that fans, coaches, etc may not hear. In those cases I can warn and again indiscreetly let coach know to prevent the language from escalating to another level.

But Nevadaref brought up a good point. He poked fun at my system as it did give the impression that in ALL circustances I give a warning first before administering a T. I think he knew already I would give a T for cursing with no warning but he wanted to give me the opportunity to say it.

There are times when warnings are not appropriate and the cursing must be T'd immediately when heard. I do not hesitate to do so when warranted. And those times I have done so I have rarely had to explain to the coach what the player said because it was already plainly evident. There have been times when the coach was already sending in the substitute.

[Daryl H. Long]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

So, "doggone it" deserves a penalty? What if the player is just mad at himself for making a bad play and mutters something like "darn"?

Again - not making fun, just curious as to the ramifications of having one official use a totally different set of criteria than the vast majority of officials.

Again just to specifiacally make a point. None of the words you use above neither deserve a penalty nor do I even address those words when I hear them on the court. In one ear and out the other.

While MY definition of cursing or profanity may be more strict that anyone else on this board it is NOT THE CRITERIA I use to determine when to penalize. To do so would be a travesty to the game and seems to make it think the game is about ME. It is not.

The criteria I use is that which not only I believe the rules committee intended when writing the rule but close to what many on this board think is intended. Based more on accepted criteria from my peers rather than my own personal beliefs.

From what I have read in this thread is that many of us seem to understand the spirit and intent of the profanity rule and are in agreement on what and when to penalize. It looks like we are rather consistent in that respect whether in Nevada, Oregon, Ohio, Canada, or wherever.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Daryl H. Long

If the "real curse" is used (yes, even the F word)in a situation that it was so softly muttered that only I heard it and it was not addressed to another player then I can indiscreetly let the player know I heard his language and to clean it up. No penalty yet as how can I prove he said it?

Proof? We don't need no stinking proof! When you function as judge, jury, and executioner, lack of proof is not a problem.

Seriously, this is obviously a matter that you do not take lightly, and I would think that those you work for/with would know this to be the case. Having said this, I would also think that you would not be inclined to take action unless you were quite certain of what the player said. Having said all this, if you feel a warning is the appropriate action, by all means do so. But, in the case of a player letting lose a stream of language which you might find totally unacceptable, even if nobody else heard it besides you, in the first place who would ask you for proof, and in the second place, cuz I said so is all the proof you would ever need in this situation.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Daryl H. Long

Finally, internet service has been restored. I will try to be brief and clear up misconceptions. My original words were in agreement with Bob Jenkins post and that is why I quoted him.

Euphemisms: I only used this example because "cursing" is not defined in rules. Obviosly my definition is more strict than many others on this board. There are words I do not wish to hear whether on the court or anywhere for that matter. But the only way I can make this known is to let people know it offends me. Most are polite enough and refrain from using language that might offend me.

But I am not so pious that I use my own definition of cursing to determine when I will administer the T. On the court if I hear a euphemism I do not address it at all...in one ear and out the other. I have other things more important to worry about. If the "real curse" is used (yes, even the F word)in a situation that it was so softly muttered that only I heard it and it was not addressed to another player then I can indiscreetly let the player know I heard his language and to clean it up. No penalty yet as how can I prove he said it?

This now begs the question of how to handle more vocal curses. My only options are to warn before giving T or give T with no warning. There is no doubt we hear things on the court that players say out loud that fans, coaches, etc may not hear. In those cases I can warn and again indiscreetly let coach know to prevent the language from escalating to another level.

But Nevadaref brought up a good point. He poked fun at my system as it did give the impression that in ALL circustances I give a warning first before administering a T. I think he knew already I would give a T for cursing with no warning but he wanted to give me the opportunity to say it.

There are times when warnings are not appropriate and the cursing must be T'd immediately when heard. I do not hesitate to do so when warranted. And those times I have done so I have rarely had to explain to the coach what the player said because it was already plainly evident. There have been times when the coach was already sending in the substitute.

Yep, Daryl, that's what I thought that you would say. Thanks for clarifying.

Now to poke a little more fun at you, I'm interested in your mechanic for "indiscreetly" warning someone. Do you stand in the center circle and loudly chastise the person or do you have it announced over the PA system?

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Yep, Daryl, that's what I thought that you would say. Thanks for clarifying.

Now to poke a little more fun at you, I'm interested in your mechanic for "indiscreetly" warning someone. Do you stand in the center circle and loudly chastise the person or do you have it announced over the PA system?

Isn't this one of the reasons why we carry a bullhorn on our belt?

I mean, that's what I've always done in Kansas, but now I'm in South Carolina with my first game today - hopefully they do it the same here.

[Coltdoggs]

Had a boy in my 14U final yesterday say "bull****" after a shooting foul called by my partner.. he was walking to get set up for the FTs when he said it and didn't address it directly to us.....there were two defensive players there and it was a pick-em....

His coach had called him over to the sideline to talk to him so I walked over and talked to him in front of the coach. I simply said "#55...I just want you to know that I heard what you said after the whistle....I know you were frustrated on that foul call but I would rather you not use profanity out here today...as you move up, you could get a T for that so keep that in mind Ok?"....He apologized to me and said it wouldn't happen again and we had no further incidents...

[gordon30307]

For me not an automatic Tee. It depends upon the following:

1. Age of players.
2. Was it directed at myself, my partner,or a player on the other team.
3. Who heard it? Myself and/or players on the court?
4. Did both benches hear it and the parents?

I can't tell you when I'll do it. But I know when to do it. Just depends on the circumstances.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by gordon30307

For me not an automatic Tee. It depends upon the following:

1. Age of players.
2. Was it directed at myself, my partner,or a player on the other team.
3. Who heard it? Myself and/or players on the court?
4. Did both benches hear it and the parents?

I can't tell you when I'll do it. But I know when to do it. Just depends on the circumstances.

Argh.