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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Sat Nov 17, 2007, 01:14pm
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Unless they did not say anything derogatory to each other, I am really not sure what you described could be considered illegal. There is nothing wrong with guarding someone. A player being frustrated by this should not be a factor if everything else is legal. I do not see guarding someone close as one of the many classifications of something unsportsmanlike.

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Old Sat Nov 17, 2007, 01:41pm
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I agree that close guarding isn't illegal; however, I was leaning more toward a "taunting" unsporting foul. A1 was literally "in the face" of B1; virtually nose-to-nose. The fact that he maintained this posture even when his team was on offense seemed unsporting to me.
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Old Sat Nov 17, 2007, 02:21pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rev.Ref63
I agree that close guarding isn't illegal; however, I was leaning more toward a "taunting" unsporting foul. A1 was literally "in the face" of B1; virtually nose-to-nose. The fact that he maintained this posture even when his team was on offense seemed unsporting to me.
Do not go looking for stuff that is not there. There is nothing illegal about just standing near someone. If a player does not want someone near him, then move and use a screen to get that player away from you. Just because you do not like something does not make it illegal. You will not find a single interpretation that says there is something that this is illegal.

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  #4 (permalink)  
Old Sat Nov 17, 2007, 02:59pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rev.Ref63
I agree that close guarding isn't illegal; however, I was leaning more toward a "taunting" unsporting foul. A1 was literally "in the face" of B1; virtually nose-to-nose. The fact that he maintained this posture even when his team was on offense seemed unsporting to me.
It's screening or guarding whether offense or defense, and perfectly legal, unless there was anything in the neighborhood or taunting or non-basketball stuff such as facial expressions or vocabulary that might be non-basketball.

I'd watch closely for goading and that kind of thing. Also, if that close play is maintained during a dead ball, I'd be on top of it, warning, separating, and maybe whacking. If A1 has a reputation for being a hothead, and it appears as though B1 is trying to just frustrate A into fouling or worse, you could call contact pretty closely as a way to back B up a little. But if A is just a really good player that B is trying to get out of the game, I think it's completely legal and cant be penalized in any way.
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Old Sat Nov 17, 2007, 03:32pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rainmaker
If A1 has a reputation for being a hothead, and it appears as though B1 is trying to just frustrate A into fouling or worse, you could call contact pretty closely as a way to back B up a little.
I'm sure this isn't what you mean, but I'd hate to think you would penalize B1 because of A1's inability to control his temper...
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Old Sat Nov 17, 2007, 04:32pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdw3018
I'm sure this isn't what you mean, but I'd hate to think you would penalize B1 because of A1's inability to control his temper...
What I meant was that if the guarding player (B or A??) is just trying to goad the hot head into losing his temper, rather than really trying to play basketball, I think it's borderline. Keep a close eye on it.
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Old Sat Nov 17, 2007, 03:48pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rainmaker
If A1 has a reputation for being a hothead, and it appears as though B1 is trying to just frustrate A into fouling or worse ...

I used this exact tactic in my son's middle school game I was coaching several years ago. The subject was a big thug with a hot head and everyone knew it. I even went so far as to have a player shadow him when he went to the water fountain. He got extremely frustrated by the third quarter and fouled out. Totally neutralized his size and skill. His coach told me after the game that almost every team they played did the same thing. He ended up playing soccer by the time he got to high school.
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Old Sat Nov 17, 2007, 05:34pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bad Zebra
I used this exact tactic in my son's middle school game I was coaching several years ago. The subject was a big thug with a hot head and everyone knew it. I even went so far as to have a player shadow him when he went to the water fountain. He got extremely frustrated by the third quarter and fouled out. Totally neutralized his size and skill. His coach told me after the game that almost every team they played did the same thing. He ended up playing soccer by the time he got to high school.
Seems to me this tactic could easily backfire if you have a decent enough coach; especially after one or two times.
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Old Sat Nov 17, 2007, 05:23pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rev.Ref63
I agree that close guarding isn't illegal; however, I was leaning more toward a "taunting" unsporting foul. A1 was literally "in the face" of B1; virtually nose-to-nose. The fact that he maintained this posture even when his team was on offense seemed unsporting to me.
Why didn't B1 move, turn his back, spin off, etc? It takes two to tango. Honestly, If I were B1's coach I would alert the officials that we will try to draw a bocking call because A1 is not giving the proper time and distance. Second, if I were B1, and a defender was nose to nose with me, I would run him over or make my V-cut head first....or reach for a pass arms head high...

Get my drift? It sounds like B1 was a weenie.
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Old Sat Nov 17, 2007, 05:34pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MeRef
Why didn't B1 move, turn his back, spin off, etc? It takes two to tango. Honestly, If I were B1's coach I would alert the officials that we will try to draw a bocking call because A1 is not giving the proper time and distance. Second, if I were B1, and a defender was nose to nose with me, I would run him over or make my V-cut head first....or reach for a pass arms head high...
I'll agree with you about B1 trying a little harder to get free. Maybe they decided that pulling A1 out of the game was a good idea and losing B1 seemed like a small price to pay. I'd be interested to hear how the game turned out. RevRef63?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MeRef
It sounds like B1 was a weenie.
I think I"ll give this one a pass.
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  #11 (permalink)  
Old Sat Nov 17, 2007, 05:38pm
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Originally Posted by rainmaker
I think I"ll give this one a pass.
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Old Sat Nov 17, 2007, 09:20pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rainmaker
I'd be interested to hear how the game turned out. RevRef63?
Thanks you for the many responses. I agree 100% about the closely guarded and screening interpretations mentioned here. My thoughts were more toward unsportsmanlike conduct. It was taunting in my opinion; especially during dead balls, free throws, and while Team A was on offense. I would have backed him up at least a step to remove all appearance of taunting.

The tactic did work, however. B1, normally a 20+ ppg was held to 13. The chemistry of Team B was totally out of whack. They lost by a significant margin.
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Old Sat Nov 17, 2007, 09:23pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rev.Ref63
It was taunting in my opinion; especially during dead balls and free throws.
He stayed on him during dead balls? Yea, I'd have done something about that. I'm not sure what. I'd have to see it to know for sure.
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Old Sat Nov 17, 2007, 09:37pm
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I would have simply moved him back and explained to the coach that this particular posture has no place in the game. I would reference 10-3-7-C. Just because a situation is legal doesn't meant that it is appropriate or sportsmanlike. For example, it is legal to save a ball and throw it off of the opponents face but it is more sporting and appropriate to save it off his leg. It is a judgment call by the official. This would apply in this situation as well, IMO.
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  #15 (permalink)  
Old Sat Nov 17, 2007, 10:05pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rainmaker
He stayed on him during dead balls? Yea, I'd have done something about that. I'm not sure what. I'd have to see it to know for sure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rainmaker
I would definitely back the guy during game stoppages (not the dead balls after made baskets).
Why? Got any rules support that says that he has to back off when the ball is dead?
I wouldn't even think of instructing the player to move away. That's not my duty. The player may find the defender's constant presence annoying, but it certainly is not illegal, and furthermore that's exactly the defender's job.

BTW I had this exact situation last year in the regular season finale. The coach's instruction was for his guy to follow his man everywhere on the court and stay right in front of him.
I simply let the defender know that he couldn't cause contact and that he would be watched closely, and then told the offensive player that we were keeping on eye on it and that he needed to keep his composure and take the tight marking as a compliment. Both guys were cool about it the whole game.
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