Unsportsmanlike?

[Rev.Ref63]

Update: I had A's coach in a tourney game this evening. The game discussed in this thread came up. He told me that he was expecting the officials to back his player up; he was surprised they didn't.

[just another ref]

Rev, this may have been answered earlier, but if so, I missed it. Was the player B in the OP talented enough to in any way justify all the extra attention? You say he was frustrated and ineffective, so may we conclude that this extreme defensive strategy was successful, or did the other 4 kill 'em?

[Rev.Ref63]

B1 was not the main scorer but he was a key player, no doubt. This defensive strategy worked brilliantly. The other players did not step up. I left at half time but heard that the second half was just like the first.

[JRutledge]

We are asking for coach's advice on rules interpretations now?

Peace

[Rev.Ref63]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

We are asking for coach's advice on rules interpretations now?

How did you possibly arrive at this conclusion? Where did anyone ask, or even imply that they asked, a coach for advice? I sure hope you do not exercise this type of careless discretion on the court.

Sadly, this type of misrepresentation makes your input suspect, in my humble opinion.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Rev.Ref63

How did you possibly arrive at this conclusion? Where did anyone ask, or even imply that they asked, a coach for advice? I sure hope you do not exercise this type of careless discretion on the court.

Sadly, this type of misrepresentation makes your input suspect, in my humble opinion.

You talked to a coach about the play and then you posted here what that coach said (as to support your position, there was no other reason to post that comment). I do not recall that I said you asked anyone anything. But if you talked to a coach, what relevance does that have to do with what have been discussed here? Coaches do not know rules like officials and most officials here said you cannot call something without some how circumventing the rules to do it. I am not trying to revisit the entire issue.

I do not know how you can get upset about what I said and you are the one that is trying to justify your position. Then again I am not the one trying to make my way the way you are and have seemed to have been as you have posted here. So I think my judgment is not questioned very much as an official. Now you on the other hand might be in a little different category considering you have not done many of the things I have. I was not asking you anything based on this, but you did bring it up.

Also if you read this board often you do not see me coming to this board asking for you input about what to do or not do as an official in these minor rules or mechanical issues. I did not go watch JH games wondering what needs to be called, that would apply to you.

Peace

[Rev.Ref63]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You talked to a coach about the play and then you posted here what that coach said (as to support your position, there was no other reason to post that comment).

There you go again with your nasty habit of misrepresenting the facts. I was discussing this coach's season and he brought up that particular game. He knew I was there watching. He volunteered the information that he was surprised the officials allowed his man to play that tight. I would never discuss a fellow official's actions with a coach. Ethics are more important to me than opportunities.

I do not recall that I said you asked anyone anything.

Who were you implying did ask when you said, "We are asking for coach's advice on rules interpretations now?" Were you talking about you and someone else?

But if you talked to a coach, what relevance does that have to do with what have been discussed here?

It was for the many who posted in this thread that did agree that the situation should have been handled differently.

Coaches do not know rules like officials and most officials here said you cannot call something without some how circumventing the rules to do it.

Not if you look at it from the perspective of sportsmanship instead of legal guarding position, which was my point of the entire thread.

I am not trying to revisit the entire issue.

Perhaps you should.

I do not know how you can get upset about what I said and you are the one that is trying to justify your position.

I assure you, friend, I am not upset in the least. I've had to deal with a Board of Deacons for many years now, Plus, I've been married since you were 10 years old. Having a mother-in-law for 25 years, your comments do not upset me in the least.

Then again I am not the one trying to make my way the way you are and have seemed to have been as you have posted here.

What??

So I think my judgment is not questioned very much as an official.

Nor is mine. I have references.

Now you on the other hand might be in a little different category considering you have not done many of the things I have.

I started coaching basketball when I was 24. I coached until I was 37 and then I began to officiate. However, I'll gladly admit that I have not made a career of officiating. That is why I ask questions. I have a desire to get it right, especially if I got it wrong before.

Also if you read this board often you do not see me coming to this board asking for you input about what to do or not do as an official in these minor rules or mechanical issues.

I guess I'm not too proud to ask questions about that which I am unclear. If my questions are beneath you, please do not feel obligated to respond.

I did not go watch JH games wondering what needs to be called, that would apply to you.

For the record, this was a HS Varsity boys game. But again, I am not too proud to learn from officials working the JH level.

[JRutledge]

Rev,

The bottom line is I asked a question. If you are so offended or defensive because someone asked a question, I do not know why you even asked the question in the first place or made the comment to support your position (which that is how I see it). Now if that was not the case, so be it. It is really not that big of a deal. Then again, I guess as a Reverend that is how you handle adversity. I can see why people have less and less faith in their lives when people like you react to issues that are not life altering. I know you are human, but man relax it will be alright. This thread was dead and you resurrected it to tell us something that was not relevant to the discussion. Who cares what a coach thinks? I know I do not.

Peace

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Rev.Ref63

Update: I had A's coach in a tourney game this evening. The game discussed in this thread came up. He told me that he was expecting the officials to back his player up; he was surprised they didn't.

Rev.Ref63:

Earlier this season you watch a game played by Team A where Team B employs a box-in-one defense against A1. Later in the season you officiate a Team A game. Why in the world are you spending so much time with Head Coach A that you can have a discussion about one of his team's previous games.

The first time you should have been talking to Head Coach A was approximately sixty seconds before the start of the game to introduce yourself and ask if his team is properly equipped. Nothing more, nothing less. I am sorry but it is unprofessional on your part to be having a conversation for any reason with either coach before the game.

MTD, Sr.

[Rev.Ref63]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I guess as a Reverend that is how you handle adversity.

This, my friend, is not adversity. The loss of a child, a financial crisis, a health crisis, these can be considered as adversity. To have a disagreement on an internet forum with someone I've never met cannot begin to be equated with adversity. I've had people sit across my desk with life-changing decisions to make before they leave my office. That, my friend, is an exercise in judgment. The decisions I have to make on the basketball court pale in comparison.

I can see why people have less and less faith in their lives when people like you react to issues that are not life altering.

People like me? You mean preachers in general or just preachers that happen to officiate? If you base your opinion of preachers of what you read on the internet, then you don't know preachers in the least.

Who cares what a coach thinks? I know I do not.

Apparently you do, friend. You stated earlier in this thread that my decision may not be accepted well by a coach who knew the rules. So, are you saying that your calls are based upon what the coaches think of your calls?

You also said that coaches do not know the rules like the officials. If that is the case, then I am in no danger of having this judgment questioned. You can't have it both ways.

[Rev.Ref63]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

The first time you should have been talking to Head Coach A was approximately sixty seconds before the start of the game to introduce yourself and ask if his team is properly equipped. Nothing more, nothing less. I am sorry but it is unprofessional on your part to be having a conversation for any reason with either coach before the game.

I'll be honest, this is the first time that I've had this suggested. In nearly every game that I've worked, the crew has had some type of dialog with the coaches before the game.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Rev.Ref63

This, my friend, is not adversity. The loss of a child, a financial crisis, a health crisis, these can be considered as adversity. To have a disagreement on an internet forum with someone I've never met cannot begin to be equated with adversity. I've had people sit across my desk with life-changing decisions to make before they leave my office. That, my friend, is an exercise in judgment. The decisions I have to make on the basketball court pale in comparison.

I agree with you, but you are acting as if someone is accusing you of violating your Pastoral Ethics. I just wanted to know when we were asking for coaches for their opinions on these issues. I did not think that was a bad question.

Originally Posted by Rev.Ref63

People like me? You mean preachers in general or just preachers that happen to officiate? If you base your opinion of preachers of what you read on the internet, then you don't know preachers in the least.

The basis of my opinion is only based on what you try to represent in your signature and the way you responded to a non-confrontational question.

Originally Posted by Rev.Ref63

Apparently you do, friend. You stated earlier in this thread that my decision may not be accepted well by a coach who knew the rules. So, are you saying that your calls are based upon what the coaches think of your calls?

Actually I do not care. I just asked a question of you and you responded as if I went after you personally. Then you attacked me in a personal way that was not called for based on the nature of this conversation.

Originally Posted by Rev.Ref63

You also said that coaches do not know the rules like the officials. If that is the case, then I am in no danger of having this judgment questioned. You can't have it both ways.

I said coaches do not know the rules like coaches; it has nothing to do with judgment. I do not know what way I am trying to have it. I just found it curious that you put so much stock into what a coach said. I would not go as far as Mark did, but I find it curious why you would be talking to a coach before a game about a game you witnessed. That does reek of some behavior that is not professional, but sometimes I have been in situations when coaches ask about things games I was not apart of. It is hard to avoid those conversations sometimes (host coach might be the AD and shows you to the locker-room). But to come back here to justify that is curious. It is really curious as to why you reacted to a simple question.

Peace

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Rev.Ref63

I'll be honest, this is the first time that I've had this suggested. In nearly every game that I've worked, the crew has had some type of dialog with the coaches before the game.

I'd consider MTD Sr.'s suggestion, Rev; it's a good one. The only "dialog" that officials should be having with a coach before a game should only be as a direct response to a rules question.

[Rev.Ref63]

Sorry it took so long for me to respond. I had to take time to preach tonight. The sermon was entitled: How to Deal With Adversity.
Just kidding.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I just asked a question of you and you responded as if I went after you personally. Then you attacked me in a personal way that was not called for based on the nature of this conversation.

I apologize if you feel that I attacked you; that was certainly not my intentions. My basis for sharing the conversation with this coach was the fact that you gave your opinion on how this coach would have reacted had the officials handled the situation the way in which I said I would probably handle it. You may be correct that some coaches would react as such, but this coach, by his own admission, would not have. That was simply my point.

I visited with this coach before the game. It was a Saturday tournament and when I arrived at the gym, I discovered that the schedule was about 45 minutes behind. The game before mine was still in the second quarter. One partner had not yet arrived and the other was working the game in progress. The coach, knowing me from previous games, chatted with me for about 20 minutes until it was time for me to change.

I have no animosity toward you in the least. I was a bit surprised that you would call my integrity and judgment into question over a disagreement so trivial, especially when many on here seemed to understand and agree with me.

Again, I apologize if I've offended you in any way. I have, and will continue to value your input and insight into the variety of questions posed on this forum. Many I have read and agreed with without ever joining the discussion.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Rev.Ref63

Sorry it took so long for me to respond. I had to take time to preach tonight. The sermon was entitled: How to Deal With Adversity.
Just kidding.


I apologize if you feel that I attacked you; that was certainly not my intentions. My basis for sharing the conversation with this coach was the fact that you gave your opinion on how this coach would have reacted had the officials handled the situation the way in which I said I would probably handle it. You may be correct that some coaches would react as such, but this coach, by his own admission, would not have. That was simply my point.

I visited with this coach before the game. It was a Saturday tournament and when I arrived at the gym, I discovered that the schedule was about 45 minutes behind. The game before mine was still in the second quarter. One partner had not yet arrived and the other was working the game in progress. The coach, knowing me from previous games, chatted with me for about 20 minutes until it was time for me to change.

I have no animosity toward you in the least. I was a bit surprised that you would call my integrity and judgment into question over a disagreement so trivial, especially when many on here seemed to understand and agree with me.

Again, I apologize if I've offended you in any way. I have, and will continue to value your input and insight into the variety of questions posed on this forum. Many I have read and agreed with without ever joining the discussion.

Rev.Ref63:

I am sorry, but you aren't going to like what I am about to say. You had absolutely no business chatting with this coach before his game which you were going to officiate. No matter how innocent the conversation was, it was the appearence of impropriety that everybody will see. It was unprofessional conduct. I am sorry but I am not going to let your off the hook on this one.

I know that you were once a coach, but once you become an official you are an official first even if you still continue to coach and that means you must conduct yourself as an official at all times, even when you are coaching. I would suggest that you go to http://www.NFHS.org or http://www.NASO.org or http://www.IAABO.org and check out the officiating codes of ethics on any of these websites.

MTD, Sr.