TRAVELING?

[wsisco]

I had a situation last night where during an inbounds pass, it hits the player and he just rolls it down to half court. He never picks it up or dribbles, but touches it twice rolling it to half-court. Is there a violation on this play? I didn't call anything, but I had one coach eating me for supper. Thanks!!

[Slider]

Without seeing this it is hard to say, but I'll try:

The intent of the rule is that IF you are in control of the ball, then you need to either dribble, pass, or shoot it.

If he just kept batting it forward, I got nothin'

If he stopped it on the floor, then I see control. So, if he then rolled it again, I have a travel if he stops it again (after taking steps).

See this thread for something analogous; you will notice that my opinion is not universally shared :-)

http://www.officialforum.com/showthr...?threadid=3893

[zebraman]

As slider said, I'd like to see this one...however....

When it hit the player you have nothing since there was no control. According to the book, you can start a dribble by batting the ball so the first touch (the beginning of rolling) was the start of the dribble. Then second touch is still part of the same legal dribble. By your description, the dribble never ended. The player could have picked it up too (thus ending the dribble). I think you made a good "no call."

Z

[BktBallRef]

It's nothing. It's no different than tapping a ball in the air. There's no player control, so that alone means that it isn't traveling.

A player must be holding the ball to travel with 2 exceptions.

1- Throwing a pass to one's self, as described in 4.15.4e

2- Gaining player control while part of the body, other than the hand or knee is touching the floor, placing the ball on the floor, getting up and picking it up as described in 4.43.5b.

[Slider]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
A player must be holding the ball to travel with 2 exceptions.
1- Throwing a pass to one's self, as described in 4.15.4e

Greetings, BktBallRef, we meet again

Since you brought up passing, let's look at our disagreement from another view:

A pass occurs when you throw, bat, or ROLL the ball to ANOTHER player (we shall disregard the fact that there is no such thing as self-passing for now).

Anyway, we agree that a player cannot "pass" a ball to himself through the air.

BUT, do you contend that he may place the ball on the floor, and then roll (pass) it to himself?

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Slider
BUT, do you contend that he may place the ball on the floor, and then roll (pass) it to himself?

Do you contend that a player cannot tap a rebound into the air several times, to himself?

[Jurassic Referee]

[/QUOTE]If the rebounder controls his taps, he is in control of the ball.

[/B][/QUOTE]Do you have a rule that will back up this one?

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Slider

Just as when a dribbler sometimes never catches a ball, but taps a pass to the floor and goes...If the rebounder controls his taps, he is in control of the ball.

Now, are you going to answer my previous question. Let us say that he placed the ball on the floor, paused, and then tapped it to start the roll (the pass) to himself. Is that traveling if he runs and then recovers the ball?

A player has player control when he is holding or dribbling the ball.
Tapping a pass to the floor is the start of a dribble.
Tapping a rebound in the air in not player control.
Tapping the ball while it's rolling on the floor is not player control.
Placing the ball on the floor means the player had player control.
Then tapping it as it rolled would constitute a self pass and traveling.
This is not what happened in the original post.
There was no player control in the original post.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Slider
I never contended that this situation is an exact mirror of the original post; this is MY scenario.

With the exception of the question that I asked you, all of my replies were addressing the original post in this thread.

Now, you said regarding my scenario:

"Placing the ball on the floor means the player had player control.
Then tapping it as it rolled would constitute a self pass and traveling"

And I said that he placed the ball on the floor and paused.

So, while the ball is on the floor during this pause, does the player have control?

If the answer to that is NO, when does he first regain control?

This is like asking which came first, the chicken or the egg. As we discussed in a different thread, the rule book does not clearly define player control when a player places the ball on the floor, when he tosses it to himself, or when he passes and retrieves it. Without an example in the case book, I'm inclined not to call traveling. The orignal play is legal. Your play is traveling, based on the case play that I previously cited, 4.15.4e.

I don't think we disagree although you seem to want to.

If a player places the ball on the floor, rolls it and retrieves it, he has gained an advantage and he has traveled. But I don't see an advantage gained when a player places the ball on the floor, bends to tie a shoe, and then picks the ball up again. I don't believe he's traveled. But that's just me.

[Slider]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
If the rebounder controls his taps, he is in control of the ball.]Do you have a rule that will back up this one?

Let's first make sure we are both talking about the same thing:

If A1 is standing and continuously tapping the ball up with his hand (in a manner eerily reminiscent of the "air dribble"), does this player have control of the ball?

[BktBallRef]

If he previously held or dribbled the ball, then yes, he has PC.

But if this is a rebound, then there is no team or player control until he holds or dribbles the ball. Dennis Rodman made, and spent, millions of dollars doing this.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Slider

Let's first make sure we are both talking about the same thing:

If A1 is standing and continuously tapping the ball up with his hand (in a manner eerily reminiscent of the "air dribble"), does this player have control of the ball?

Yes..no..yes..no..yes..no..yes....(credit to Mick)..My answer is the same as BBref's.No control on a rebound.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Jan 30th, 2002 at 05:28 AM]

[Slider]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
If A1 is standing and continuously tapping the ball up with his hand (in a manner eerily reminiscent of the "air dribble"), does this player have control of the ball? ///]Yes..no..yes..no..yes..no..yes....(credit to Mick)..My answer is the same as BktBallRef's. No control on a rebound.

O.K., say he never catches the ball: He "controls" the rebound by tapping it in the air to himself, and then continues tapping it just above his hand at waist level. Since he isn't in control, he can run down the court tapping it (just above his hand). NO TRAVEL

Now, say he did catch the rebound. Then starts tapping it at waist level. Then runs down court tapping it just above his hand. TRAVEL

How can you have a travel in one, and not the other?

Which brings me back to the ball on the floor, which the player placed at his feet.

If the ball was loose at that point, he could legally tap it forward and then run and pick it up. But, the ball is NOT loose, it is in his control, so it definitely is a travel if he taps it forward and then runs to pick it up.


[Edited by Slider on Jan 30th, 2002 at 06:51 AM]

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Slider
O.K., say he never catches the ball: He "controls" the rebound by tapping it in the air to himself, and then continues tapping it just above his hand at waist level. Since he isn't in control, he can run down the court tapping it (just above his hand). NO TRAVEL

First, it's pointless to discuss such a silly situation. There are 5 opponents on the floor and they aren't going to let him run down the floor, tapping the ball into the air. Also, it makes no sense to do it when he could dribble and move much faster. But until he has player control, he can't travel.

Now, say he did catch the rebound. Then starts tapping it at waist level. Then runs down court tapping it just above his hand. TRAVEL

How can you have a travel in one, and not the other?

Because there is player control in one and not the other.

Which brings me back to the ball on the floor, which the player placed at his feet.

If the ball was loose at that point, he could legally tap it forward and then run and pick it up. But, the ball is NOT loose, it is in his control, so it definitely is a travel if he taps it forward and then runs to pick it up.

It all goes back to player control. Tapping a ball does not establish player control. You cannot have traveling unless you first have player control.

Gotta go to work. Have a good day!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Slider

O.K., say he never catches the ball: He "controls" the rebound by tapping it in the air to himself, and then continues tapping it just above his hand at waist level. Since he isn't in control, he can run down the court tapping it (just above his hand). NO TRAVEL

Now, say he did catch the rebound. Then starts tapping it at waist level. Then runs down court tapping it just above his hand. TRAVEL

How can you have a travel in one, and not the other?

Slider,you can't have player control without team control.R4-12-5 says team control does not exist during the touching of a rebound,but is re-established when a player SECURES control.See casebook 4-12Comment for explanation,too.Now take a look at Casebook 4-15-1SituationA and 4-15-4SituationE.The key phrase in 4-15-1A is"Legal--the dribble does not begin until A1 has gained control".No control=no pivot foot.In 4-15-4E,the player has control and a pivot foot.That's why one is OK,and the other is a travel.Make a little more sense now?