Speaking of Visible Counts..Part 2

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Please understand that I am not trying to beat a dead horse or to start a fight on this. I am merely responding to those who posted before me in this thread.

We are on a discussion board right? We do discuss issues like this right? I do not consider it a fight when someone makes a valid point which I feel you are, but in my opinion might not be completely correct. That is why we are here I hope.

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

I think both those statements are false. If I'm wrong, I apologize. If the original poster lives in a state that doesn't care about NFHS mechanics, that's fine. I'm simply trying to point out to anyone who might care about the NFHS mechanic that the NFHS does seem to want the Lead to count for this violation.

You say this as if everything is addressed in great detail in the NF Mechanics book. If you have not noticed, there are a lot of things that are not even touched on at all. And to take one statement and imply is must me that is a little irresponsible to me. The NF does not cover how we change a 3 point shot to a 2. The NF does not cover how we change an out of bounds call. The NF does not even address directly when to make a call across the lane or in the lane (which can vary based on situation). You cannot take one statement and apply it to all situations when 3 Person is a fluid system that changes constantly. And unless he heard it is OK to do that with the people he works for, I would caution him on thinking this is OK. I do often qualify my statements with answers that might not apply to the NF directly, since the NF does not run camps in most states and the NF leaves a lot of things on purpose to state representatives. Then again, you do whatever you think works for you Scrappy. But if you work in my state and you do this, it will not result in good evaluations. I can guarantee that one.

Peace

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

We are on a discussion board right? We do discuss issues like this right? I do not consider it a fight when someone makes a valid point which I feel you are, but in my opinion might not be completely correct. That is why we are here I hope.

That is indeed why I'm here, too. Thank you for taking my comments the way I intended them.

You say this as if everything is addressed in great detail in the NF Mechanics book.

I didn't mean to do that. I was just trying to state what I thought the book was saying. Fortunately, someone else has posted a more "authoritative" quote from the NFHS.

[truerookie]

NCAA-W there is no 5 second count on a dribble. Also, distance must be 3 feet or less and the dribbler must be holding the ball to start your 5 second count.

The closely guarded count can be conducted in the BC as well as the FC.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Drizzle

In the 2007-09 NFHS Officials Manual, this is a point of emphasis:

0.1.5 Lead Count (Crew of Three): When the ball drops below the free-throw line extended on the Lead's side of the court, the Lead's main responsibility is to watch the post players on the low block. When the ball is moved into the low block and a new closely-guarded count should begin, the Lead signals the count. Too often, the Trail officials begins a new count when the Lead official is still responsible.

So according to the Fed, the lead does indeed count, barring any state exceptions.

Good catch.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

That is indeed why I'm here, too. Thank you for taking my comments the way I intended them.

I didn't mean to do that. I was just trying to state what I thought the book was saying. Fortunately, someone else has posted a more "authoritative" quote from the NFHS.

I am glad too. And that is why the IHSA does not use their books. That is a terrible mechanic and I have never taught that or been taught that. I am glad I do not have to follow it.

Peace

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The NF does not cover how we change a 3 point shot to a 2.

Are you sure about that?

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Are you sure about that?

They'd better! If they don't ( ), then they can consult me and I'll advise them on the procedure that I've used.

[bob jenkins]

My take:

1) If you're "on the ball", you should have any needed counts.

2) "Not being taught to do" something is not the same as "Being taught not to do" something

3) Too many people hear "The facts of the game (as Jeff listed) mean that the lead 'never' has this call" and interpret it as "The lead need not use this mechanic."

4) The lead's area in a three-person game is 80% (SWAG) of the lead's area in a two-person game. If the lead counts in a two-person game, why not count in a three-person game?

5) The count *can* be part of crew communication -- telling T that L now has the ball and T should go off-ball.

IMO, it should be used (when appropriate). I use it and have not been told to stop.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

IMO, it should be used (when appropriate). I use it and have not been told to stop.

Well the Head Clinician and Rules Interpreter does not condone the use. And I was on a game during his camp this summer when he told someone to not count from the Lead (one of my partners counted).

And considering that we do not use the NF book anymore (you will not get them anymore through the IHSA for a reason) I do not want to use something that is not on the PowerPoint. No where on the PowerPoint does it suggest the Lead ever give a count.

Peace

[eyezen]

Reading this...

Originally Posted by JRutledge

...My state does not even hand out the NF Official's Manual anymore because in general they do not use the NF's position on all mechanics.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I am glad too. And that is why the IHSA does not use their books. That is a terrible mechanic and I have never taught that or been taught that. I am glad I do not have to follow it.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

And considering that we do not use the NF book anymore (you will not get them anymore through the IHSA for a reason) I do not want to use something that is not on the PowerPoint. No where on the PowerPoint does it suggest the Lead ever give a count.

Yet from the recent shot clock thread...

Originally Posted by JRutledge

It is not going to change in Illinois unless the NF changes the rule. To make a long story short, the IHSA has a very good relationship with the NF and they are not going to do something that is going to jeopardize that relationship by using a rule that goes against the NF. At least that is not going to be the case with this current administration in the IHSA office....

Sounds like a bipolar relationship they have over there....

/Yes I know the difference between hard and fast rules and fluid mechanics....

// By the way, I agree with your stance, neither my association nor camp system has ever suggested the lead should have a closely guarded count. Regional restrictions apply.

/// See Mark P. I can have sense of humor, and I don't need meds either.

//// Are slashies acceptable here?

Edit: spelling

[JRutledge]

Complying with a rule and complying with a mechanic is not the same thing. And the NF does not even try to preach or require compliance with their mechanics. I asked that very question of Mary Struckoff in person when she was giving a Presentation about the NF Online Class about 2 or 3 years ago. She made it clear the NF does not really care what a state does and gave a couple of examples of how it did not matter what a state did. Even rules interpretations are supposed to go through states first and filter to the national level. Even some rules can have interpretations that might not be clarified nationally.

Peace

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

They'd better! If they don't ( ), then they can consult me and I'll advise them on the procedure that I've used.

I brought it up because, in fact, the NFHS did specify a procedure for this.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

My take:

1) If you're "on the ball", you should have any needed counts.

2) "Not being taught to do" something is not the same as "Being taught not to do" something

3) Too many people hear "The facts of the game (as Jeff listed) mean that the lead 'never' has this call" and interpret it as "The lead need not use this mechanic."

4) The lead's area in a three-person game is 80% (SWAG) of the lead's area in a two-person game. If the lead counts in a two-person game, why not count in a three-person game?

5) The count *can* be part of crew communication -- telling T that L now has the ball and T should go off-ball.

IMO, it should be used (when appropriate). I use it and have not been told to stop.

I just want to clarify information that I received confirmation (or confirm) yesterday at a clinic I was acting as a clinician.

The IHSA does not want the Lead official to ever have a closely-guarded count. What other states might do is likely different. This information came from a Rules Interpreter who is also a Certified Clinician that ran a clinic I attended on Sunday. This was emphasized as a clear difference from the NF.

Peace