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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Sun Oct 14, 2007, 01:23pm
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Speaking of visible counts...

mick's comment that in some games, visible counts start and last longer got me thinking.

How do you admin your visible counts?

I see some officials have a hand motion extended as soon as a player touches the ball. I wonder if they're counting "zero" in their head. If I know they're new, I have no problem asking them about it.
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Old Sun Oct 14, 2007, 01:32pm
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I've often wondered that myself when watching some counts. I guess depending on the level of the players, some officials make a slower count than normal. I always try to be consistent in my timing when giving a visible count for my own benefit and practice.
That said, I always have at least a full second elapsed before I have my arm extended.
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Old Sun Oct 14, 2007, 01:35pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JugglingReferee
mick's comment that in some games, visible counts start and last longer got me thinking.

How do you admin your visible counts?

I see some officials have a hand motion extended as soon as a player touches the ball. I wonder if they're counting "zero" in their head. If I know they're new, I have no problem asking them about it.
When the ball is secured by the thrower, I start my my arm.
When my arm is extended at shoulder height, I have One.
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Old Sun Oct 14, 2007, 03:06pm
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When the ball is first touched, I drop my arm in front of me, kind of like I'm starting a "beat", then I bring it up and then out for the "one" count. It's almost like I'm counting as "and one" to start.

It's hard to describe. To visualize it properly, you'd have to see me.

Of course, if you watch enough episodes of "America's Most Wanted", eventually you'll see one with me in it.
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Old Sun Oct 14, 2007, 04:40pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Padgett
When the ball is first touched, I drop my arm in front of me, kind of like I'm starting a "beat", then I bring it up and then out for the "one" count. It's almost like I'm counting as "and one" to start.

It's hard to describe. To visualize it properly, you'd have to see me.

Of course, if you watch enough episodes of "America's Most Wanted", eventually you'll see one with me in it.
Don't verbalize that when near one of the benches.
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Old Sun Oct 14, 2007, 05:34pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Padgett
When the ball is first touched, I drop my arm in front of me, kind of like I'm starting a "beat", ....
...Too easy....
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Old Sun Oct 14, 2007, 08:30pm
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Originally Posted by mick
...Too easy....
I knew it would be. But sometimes, you just have to give back to the community.
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Old Sun Oct 14, 2007, 10:07pm
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visible count

to quote dave hall, "be dumb like a fox." He instructed us, and it makes sense to me, to be slow in starting your five count; his philosophy is that the sooner you start the count, the sooner you will get to five and have to call a violation; he wants to avoid having to call that kind of stuff, so he tries to be slow about getting the count going; coaches are not going to notice that, they just pay attention once a couple seconds go by and they do not see a count;

anyway, those were his thoughts on the issue
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Old Sun Oct 14, 2007, 10:20pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boiseball
to quote dave hall, "be dumb like a fox." He instructed us, and it makes sense to me, to be slow in starting your five count; his philosophy is that the sooner you start the count, the sooner you will get to five and have to call a violation; he wants to avoid having to call that kind of stuff, so he tries to be slow about getting the count going; coaches are not going to notice that, they just pay attention once a couple seconds go by and they do not see a count;

anyway, those were his thoughts on the issue
That'd be good for an elementary tournament where the teams don't bust their butts trying to play intense defense.

Why punish the defense?
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Old Mon Oct 15, 2007, 06:51am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mick
That'd be good for an elementary tournament where the teams don't bust their butts trying to play intense defense.

Why punish the defense?
Jmo, but I think that the only firm rule on how to handle counts is that there is no firm rule. There's too many different situations and circumstances that you might encounter that may require the use of a little judgment and restraint at times.
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Old Mon Oct 15, 2007, 07:21am
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Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
Jmo, but I think that the only firm rule on how to handle counts is that there is no firm rule. There's too many different situations and circumstances that you might encounter that may require the use of a little judgment and restraint at times.
Well, that's fine, but to start the count late "to avoid having to call that kind of stuff" seems to show a total disregard for the rule.
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Old Mon Oct 15, 2007, 07:46am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boiseball
to quote dave hall, "be dumb like a fox." He instructed us, and it makes sense to me, to be slow in starting your five count; his philosophy is that the sooner you start the count, the sooner you will get to five and have to call a violation; he wants to avoid having to call that kind of stuff, so he tries to be slow about getting the count going; coaches are not going to notice that, they just pay attention once a couple seconds go by and they do not see a count;

anyway, those were his thoughts on the issue
If a team is playing hard defense (as Mick points out) I know if I don't start my count I'll hear from the bench & the players on defense. So I always start my count right away.
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Old Mon Oct 15, 2007, 08:58am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mick
Well, that's fine, but to start the count late "to avoid having to call that kind of stuff" seems to show a total disregard for the rule.
Agree completely, it irritates me to no end when I see counts that are obviously slow...this is no different to me than not calling a travel when a guy takes an extra step, if a team is busting their a**es playing defense you owe it to them to give them an honest count....that being said no count will be perfect, but just like you should practice your jump ball toss, you should also practice your count imo.....I do it all the time in summer league games when I can watch the clock and compare to my count coming up the floor...
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Old Mon Oct 15, 2007, 10:25am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mick
Well, that's fine, but to start the count late "to avoid having to call that kind of stuff" seems to show a total disregard for the rule.
I agree. How about if we close our eyes every time a player drives to the hoop "to avoid having to call any fouls"? The rules are there for a reason. If you're going to ignore them, just stay home.
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Old Mon Oct 15, 2007, 10:33am
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Guys, Mick was not saying literally to not ever call a violation. I think he is saying to give them a true count and take your time. I think it is better to be a little slow than to be very quick on this call.

For the record, I call 5 second calls all the time. So I have no problem making a call like this. But I want that call to be made without being in a hurry.

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