just checking

[williebfree]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by dblref

Team A jacks up a 3 (I'm trail) and I signal the 3, shot goes in. Same time, hear partner's whistle for a Team B push-off on rebound. Counted the 3 and Team A got the ball back because of the foul. Team B howler monkey was P/O'd about the call, but aren't they always?

Must be infectious... Same thing happened to me last night (Boys JV game)!

As for consideration of advantage/disadvantage, these two teams (rivals) were banging from the tip-off. My partner and I stressed sportsmanship in the pre-game conference, whistled the first contact, we both gave "unheeded" verbal warnings early in the first quarter. We halted the game and gathered the captians and coaches and reminded them that they needed to get their teams under control or we would be forced to continue the whistles.

Needless to say, we were forced to continue whistling. We ended up in the bonus for both teams in the 1st and 3rd quarters and double bonus early in the 2nd and 4th quarters. Both teams had deep benches and used them freely.


The players (both sides) seemed to be affected by murphy's law or some strange force, if they saw an opportunity to foul they would chose it. Most of it was petty stuff: "contact on a reach", extending a hip/elbow on a pick, PUSHING while attempting to "steal" a rebound from behind (Over the back, for the howler monkeys ), etc....
51 fouls later, the final horn rang. Home - 42 Visitors - 79.

It was ugly.



[Edited by williebfree on Jan 30th, 2002 at 11:00 AM]

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach

Exactly. But I would say it slightly differently. Because of the advantage/disadvantage concept, this type of contact should be considered incidental, unless it is so flagrant you believe you need to call it. And in that case, I would expect you to have either a T or an intentional. Otherwise, let it go, and either give a quiet verbal warning to all post players or call it tight on the next real rebounding situation if the play inside is getting a little rough.

This is simply a matter of holding your whistle for a half a second to see if the ball rebounds off the rim. Not a big deal.

I agree.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Basketball is NOT soccer, there is NO advantage clause in basketball like there is in soccer. Let me repeat myself: Basketball is NOT soccer, there is NO advantage clause in basketball like there is in soccer.

It is utter nonsense to wait and see if the field goal attempt is not successful to call a foul. This is not a case of advantage/disadvantage. This is covered in NFHS R4-S27 and NCAA R4-S37, incidental contact. A2's contact is not incidental contact.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Basketball is NOT soccer, there is NO advantage clause in basketball like there is in soccer. Let me repeat myself: Basketball is NOT soccer, there is NO advantage clause in basketball like there is in soccer.

It is utter nonsense to wait and see if the field goal attempt is not successful to call a foul. This is not a case of advantage/disadvantage. This is covered in NFHS R4-S27 and NCAA R4-S37, incidental contact. A2's contact is not incidental contact.

How did the push "hinder B2 (or whoever it was in the orignial) from participating in normal defensive movements?"

If the shot was good, and the foul was "minor-enough" to not influence subsequent rebounding attempts, then the only movement B2 has is to either inbound the ball or run down the court for the offensive set.

I understand what is being said about advantage/disadvantage but I think some of you are expanding that concept a little too much. I look at it regardless of what is going on with the ball if the contact away from the ball is bad enough to warrant a foul then it should be called whether the ball goes in or not. Basically I see it as A2 is gaining an advantage over B2 because they are getting position illegally. I am tempted to think that going with the definition being used in this case to justify not calling a foul because of advantage/disadvantage you could also say that if the ball does miss yet it comes off of the rim to the opposite direction of where A2 is then there is no advantage gained, and I personally think that would be called as well.

[Oz Referee]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Duane, this play is a no brainer. Foul on A2; there is nothing in the rule book (NFHS, NCAA, or FIBA) that can an official can use to defend not calling a foul on A2.

Mark, the very definition of what constitutes a foul permits a referee to not call this.

From the FIBA rulebook, Article 43.1.2

"In determining whether or not to penalise such contact, the officials shall in each instance regard and weigh up the following fundamental principles:

Consistency in applying the concept of 'advantage/disadvantage', whereby the officials should not seek to interrupt the flow of the game unnecessarily, in order to penalise personal contact that is incidental and which does not give the player responsible an advantage nor place his opponent at a disadvantage." [Empahsis added]


If the opponent has no possibilty of rebounding the ball (bcause the basket is made) how are they being put at a disadvantage?

[LarryS]

I have been told by several varisty officials in my chapter that wether you call this depends on the level of play. That stumped my for a moment, but they explained that at the lower levels it was more important for the players to learn what was and was not "legal". Therefore, if you are calling JH or Frosh ball you would whistle this foul.

However, if you have any desire to move up to varsity from JV (which you are "rewarded" with based on test scores, mechanics, etc.) you need to hold the whistle for a second or two and see if the play was impacted. They compared it to the 3 sec. violation. If a player wants to take himself out of his teams play, let him. If the ball is passed to him while he is in the lane, then you blow your whistle.

Therefore, in this case I would hold have nothing if it was JV or varsity and a foul if it was a lower skill level.

[Hawks Coach]

Originally posted by Jerry Blum
I understand what is being said about advantage/disadvantage but I think some of you are expanding that concept a little too much. I look at it regardless of what is going on with the ball if the contact away from the ball is bad enough to warrant a foul then it should be called whether the ball goes in or not. Basically I see it as A2 is gaining an advantage over B2 because they are getting position illegally. I am tempted to think that going with the definition being used in this case to justify not calling a foul because of advantage/disadvantage you could also say that if the ball does miss yet it comes off of the rim to the opposite direction of where A2 is then there is no advantage gained, and I personally think that would be called as well.

Your second situation (ball rebounds away) differs from the first. I would say if the shot doesn't fall, an advantage may have been gained and it is up to you to make that determination. You wouldn't be wrong to whistle it. Suppose it is A2 pushing B2 and A3 gets the rebound. Now B3 may be forced into defending A2 and A3 because A2 is out of position. That is an advantage for A through illegal contact - call the foul. If there is a rebound, call what you must to keep the game good.

But if there is no rebound, I cannot agree with your conclusion that A now has some sort of advantage through A2's push, or B through B2's push - whichever team committed the push, no advantage. They had a potential advantage until the shot went in, at that point, no advantage. B is inbounding on the baseline, push or no push, and the push during the shot has no impact on that play.

One thing that is a fundamental precept of refereeing in all sports is call only what you need to call. The game is so much better that way.

[walter]

For all of those arguing that you don't call this, consider this. A1 shoots the ball and while it is in the air, A2 moves down the lane and blasts into B1 knocking him out of the way. Ball goes in. What I've been reading people are saying not to call this. If the contact is severe enough to displace B1 then it has got to be called. B1 is entitled to his position on the floor if he/she was there first. It doesn't matter if the ball goes in or not. At the time of the contact, that issue hasn't been decided. What has been decided is that A2 displaced B1 illegally. If you don't call this, you are headed right toward a potential rough play scenario (B1 pushing back, etc.). I will agree that if two players are simply legally jostling hard for rebounding position, then you can hold the whistle. If someone gets displaced illegally, you gotta have a whistle.

Hawks Coach,
I agree with your last statement that I should call only what needs to be called to keep the flow of the game. However, I guess I am thinking that if I am going to call a foul in this situation it is going to be severe enough contact that whatever happens with the ball it should be called. Personally I think that some minor pushing going for rebounding position is OK, but when the contact is severe enough I am going to call it no matter what.

I guess we may just be misunderstanding what each considers a foul in this situation.

[Hawks Coach]

Jerry, walter
I agree that really flagrant contact should be called - but then it is something beyond a push to obtain position for rebounding. And you could make an intentional (or, in the EXTREME, flagrant) foul call if you felt it was warranted. But this is a "you have to see it to call it" situation. If you can get away with warning them when no rebound is involved, and make it clear that you will not tolerate rough play, it will either stop or you will soon have a missed shot on which to call a foul - and you can call one on every rebound if it doesn't stop! If it stops, then your warning sufficed and the game was not negatively impacted in any way.

That is my point. Call it when you need to. And the standard should be different if the shot goes in then if it is missed. It doesn't mean you never call anything on a missed shot, but I would hope it would be something you felt you absolutely could not let go, which is a different standard than just saying someone may have gained an advantage for a rebound.

[JRutledge]

If I shove a player that is at the top of the key, out of bounds regardless of where the ball is, it is a foul. Because if that player gets up and decks the player that fouled him, you will not take the same idea I guarantee that.

All the time coaches are trying to tell us that "this" happen first and you should not call a foul on "my" guy because "the other guy" pushed him first.

Rough play has nothing to do with the game and should be called every time.

I am a huge advocate of advantage/disadvantage principles, but knocking a guy down and waiting to see whether the shot went in or not has nothing to do with that principle.

Peace

[Oz Referee]

Rut,

I agree that knocking a player down must always be called, however, in this case I believe that the sitch refered to more of a boxing out/physical play under the hoop. Obviously any call must be made according to the situation, I was simply trying to suggest that this is not automatically a foul that should be called.

I have always thought that the main difference between a good referee and a great referee is not in what they call, but in what they chose not to call.

[Hawks Coach]

To be clear, a slight push off to get position on a rebound is very common and not the same as a major shove. I would call the big time shove anywhere as well. The initial description of this play did not indicate any severity to the action - sounded like your run of the mill jostling under the boards with a pushing foul called on the defensive player simultaneous with a made shot.

Most times, this does not need to be called. And jrut, having read your philosophy on many subjects related to higher level ball and based on your high level playing experience, I bet you don't call the run of the mill defensive rebounding pushoff on a made shot. You pass on it like 99.9% of varsity refs. And most games do not feature a whole bunch of violent shoves that demand to be called. When they happen, call 'em. That's not the play I am discussing.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach


Most times, this does not need to be called. And jrut, having read your philosophy on many subjects related to higher level ball and based on your high level playing experience, I bet you don't call the run of the mill defensive rebounding pushoff on a made shot. You pass on it like 99.9% of varsity refs. And most games do not feature a whole bunch of violent shoves that demand to be called. When they happen, call 'em. That's not the play I am discussing.

Coach, you are correct on one thing, I am not calling the run of the mill push. But I do not care if the ball goes in or does not go in either. I will blow my whistle before the ball even has an ultimate chance. The result of the play is not going to be a factor in an off-ball situation necessarily. If that action completely unneccessary and is not basketball related.

Peace