just checking

[golfdesigner]

Last night, men's rec ball, A1 takes 3-pt shot [ball in air], A2 under basket ready for rebound, pushes B2 nearly out of lane as he is "boxing out", call is A2 for "pushing", ball goes through hoop, call was no basket, ball was dead as soon as A2 fouled. Ball out to B, [not in bonus], did we get it right?

[Bart Tyson]

Basket is good. Sorry you missed this one.

[RecRef]

Originally posted by golfdesigner
Last night, men's rec ball, A1 takes 3-pt shot [ball in air], A2 under basket ready for rebound, pushes B2 nearly out of lane as he is "boxing out", call is A2 for "pushing", ball goes through hoop, call was no basket, ball was dead as soon as A2 fouled. Ball out to B, [not in bonus], did we get it right?

No. The push has nothing to do with the ball being in the air/shot. Basket counts and the push is handled like any other foul.

[dblref]

Originally posted by golfdesigner
Last night, men's rec ball, A1 takes 3-pt shot [ball in air], A2 under basket ready for rebound, pushes B2 nearly out of lane as he is "boxing out", call is A2 for "pushing", ball goes through hoop, call was no basket, ball was dead as soon as A2 fouled. Ball out to B, [not in bonus], did we get it right?

Had this in a rec game last night. Team A jacks up a 3 (I'm trail) and I signal the 3, shot goes in. Same time, hear partner's whistle for a Team B push-off on rebound. Counted the 3 and Team A got the ball back because of the foul. Team B howler monkey was P/O'd about the call, but aren't they always?

[Hawks Coach]

Originally posted by dblref
[QUOTEHad this in a rec game last night. Team A jacks up a 3 (I'm trail) and I signal the 3, shot goes in. Same time, hear partner's whistle for a Team B push-off on rebound. Counted the 3 and Team A got the ball back because of the foul. Team B howler monkey was P/O'd about the call, but aren't they always?

This is a call you can, and should in my book, pass on. N advantage gained since shot went in (no rebound to gain advantage for). If shot is missed, TWEEEET, for same reason - advantage gained on rebound.

That's why my fellow howler was so peeved (as if we really need a reason ). Once the whistle was blown by your partner, call had to be made. But whistle can (should) be held until you see if shot is going to go. I am sure that others on this board will be glad to share a different opinion. But just ask yourself how many times you see this call in a college game, and you'll know how the top refs call this one. No advantage, no call - incidental contact, play on.

[Hawks Coach]

Originally posted by dblref
[QUOTEHad this in a rec game last night. Team A jacks up a 3 (I'm trail) and I signal the 3, shot goes in. Same time, hear partner's whistle for a Team B push-off on rebound. Counted the 3 and Team A got the ball back because of the foul. Team B howler monkey was P/O'd about the call, but aren't they always?

This is a call you can, and should in my book, pass on. No advantage gained since shot went in (no rebound to gain advantage for). If shot is missed, TWEEEET, for same reason - advantage gained on rebound.

That's why my fellow howler was so peeved (as if we really need a reason ). Once the whistle was blown by your partner, call had to be made. But whistle can (should) be held until you see if shot is going to go. I am sure that others on this board will be glad to share a different opinion. But just ask yourself how many times you see this call in a college game, and you'll know how the top refs call this one. No advantage, no call - incidental contact, play on.

[BktBallRef]

A foul is a foul coach. If there's enough contact to call a foul, it doesn't matter whether the ball goes in or not.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
A foul is a foul coach. If there's enough contact to call a foul, it doesn't matter whether the ball goes in or not.

Thank you BktBallRef, you saved me from having to give my $50 lecture on incidental contact.

[Oz Referee]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
A foul is a foul coach. If there's enough contact to call a foul, it doesn't matter whether the ball goes in or not.

Of course it matters if the ball goes in or not! A foul is only a foul if the contact causes an illegal disadvantage or advantage. In this sitch there is no advantage, so unless the foul is unsportsmanlike (Flagrent) then there should be no whistle.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Oz, BktBallRef is correct. The foul occured during the field goal attempt. Basketball is not like soccer where the Referee can wait to see if the foul affects the play. At the time that A2 pushed B2, there is no way to tell if the field goal attempt will be successful or not. If the field goal attempt was unsuccessful B2 may have gotten the rebound. This foul has to be called.

[Oz Referee]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Oz, BktBallRef is correct. The foul occured during the field goal attempt. Basketball is not like soccer where the Referee can wait to see if the foul affects the play. At the time that A2 pushed B2, there is no way to tell if the field goal attempt will be successful or not. If the field goal attempt was unsuccessful B2 may have gotten the rebound. This foul has to be called.

Mark,

I realise that basketball is not like soccer (real football!).

My point is that, if possible, the referee should hold the whistle, and if the basket is good, this foul soesn't need to be called. Obviously it depends on the circumstances. If the shooting guard jacks up a 40 footer, and as soon as he releases the rebounder clears out - it has to be called. However, if the centre attempts a shot from 5 feet, then the should be enough time to wait and see if the basket is good.

The same concept applies to slight contact on a ball handler - hold the whistle, if they don't lose control - no call, if they are impeaded at all, blow the foul. I find this especially true for players trying to strip the ball from behind. Often I find that the defender puts themselves at a disadvantage, giving the offence a clean path to the basket - only for the referee to call incidental contact and a fast break opportunity ruined.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Duane, this play is a no brainer. Foul on A2; there is nothing in the rule book (NFHS, NCAA, or FIBA) that can an official can use to defend not calling a foul on A2.

[Hawks Coach]

That's why so many successful referees make a habit of calling this??

I am not saying you cannot defend this call because pushing is clearly defined in the book. But this happens all the time and is not called ever - haven't seen it in HS varsity games, let alone college or pro. There is a reason, and it is advantage/disadvantage. Contact that results in an advantage gets called. No rebound, no advantage, no call.

[Slider]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach There is a reason, and it is advantage/disadvantage. Contact that results in an advantage gets called. No rebound, no advantage, no call

I think we all would call this the same, but we are using different terminology; what some of you see as advantage/disadvantage, others see as incidental contact.

[Hawks Coach]

Originally posted by Slider

I think we all would call this the same, but we are using different terminology; what some of you see as advantage/disadvantage, others see as incidental contact.

Exactly. But I would say it slightly differently. Because of the advantage/disadvantage concept, this type of contact should be considered incidental, unless it is so flagrant you believe you need to call it. And in that case, I would expect you to have either a T or an intentional. Otherwise, let it go, and either give a quiet verbal warning to all post players or call it tight on the next real rebounding situation if the play inside is getting a little rough.

This is simply a matter of holding your whistle for a half a second to see if the ball rebounds off the rim. Not a big deal.