Backcourt or Not?

[joseph2493]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

Here's the four conditions that all must be met to have a back court violation (NF rules):

1) there must be team control
2) the ball must have achieved front court status
3) the team in team control must be last to touch the ball in the front court
4) that same team must be first to touch the ball after it has been in the back court

Apply these conditions to your situation and what is your conclusion?

Well, I guess that rises the question... Does "A-2" touching the ball while having front court status (one foot down in the front court and the other in the air) cause the ball to gain front court status even if A-1 is dribbling.

If the touching on the leg gives it frontcourt status than we have a backcourt violation if not than we don't.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by joseph2493

Well, I guess that rises the question... Does "A-2" touching the ball while having front court status (one foot down in the front court and the other in the air) cause the ball to gain front court status even if A-1 is dribbling.

If the touching on the leg gives it frontcourt status than we have a backcourt violation if not than we don't.

You are thinking correctly.

Now let's look at the rule on the status of the ball.

4-4-2 . . . A ball which is in contact with a player or with the court is in the frontcourt if neither the ball nor the player is touching the backcourt.

Is the teammate of A1 dribbling? Nope. So the above rule applies to him.

[SamIAm]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

You are thinking correctly.

Now let's look at the rule on the status of the ball.

4-4-2 . . . A ball which is in contact with a player or with the court is in the frontcourt if neither the ball nor the player is touching the backcourt.

Is the teammate of A1 dribbling? Nope. So the above rule applies to him.

I agree with this, but isn't A1 still dribbling. If so the 3-points rule is also in effect and says the ball is in the backcourt. We have a rule that says the ball is FC and another rule saying ball is in backcourt with no rule indicating which one overrides the other.

I withdraw the issue, I have re-read the OP, and saw where the ball rebounds to backcourt. I know the dribble ends if the opponent touches the ball, is it the same if a teammate touches the ball in a dribbling situation?

Alright, I am a waffler, at least for today. The dribble hasn't ended, so we have two rules that conflict with no guidance as to which overrides the other.

[SmokeEater]

If I remember correctly the rule about the ball having backcourt status ONLY applies to the dribbler. As soon as A2 touches the ball ( non-ball handler) then it superceeds the dribbler rule and the ball gains FC status. Then the over and back ruling applies.

[Coltdoggs]

This is a good discussion...

I ran the play through my head and I'm inclined to say I do not call a BC violation because in my mind the ball never got FC status by 3 points of entry.

Then I read on and as posted 4-4-2 would have me second guessing my call and I think I'd be wrong for not calling it. Second player is technically in FC....I kicked it!

[tjones1]

Colt,

Remember three points only applies when dribbling. Way to work it out!

I'll bet you don't kick it on the court now!

[Coltdoggs]

Originally Posted by tjones1

Colt,

Remember three points only applies when dribbling. Way to work it out!

I'll bet you don't kick it on the court now!

Roger that TJ....If you don't learn or remember something new everyday...you are holding yourself back!

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by SamIAm

I agree with this, but isn't A1 still dribbling. If so the 3-points rule is also in effect and says the ball is in the backcourt. We have a rule that says the ball is FC and another rule saying ball is in backcourt with no rule indicating which one overrides the other.

I withdraw the issue, I have re-read the OP, and saw where the ball rebounds to backcourt. I know the dribble ends if the opponent touches the ball, is it the same if a teammate touches the ball in a dribbling situation?

Alright, I am a waffler, at least for today. The dribble hasn't ended, so we have two rules that conflict with no guidance as to which overrides the other.

Sam,
Once A2 contacts the ball an interrupted dribble occurs. The ball is temporarily not in control of A1. Therefore, the "three-points" rule (4-4-6) which only applies during a dribble, not during an interrupted dribble is not in conflict with 4-4-2 on this play.

[Adam]

I disagree. Once A2 contacts the ball, the dribble is over. Or does the new rule change only include contact by an opponent?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I disagree. Once A2 contacts the ball, the dribble is over. Or does the new rule change only include contact by an opponent?

4-15-4d The dribble ends when:
"...The ball touches or is touched by an opponent and causes the dribbler to lose control."

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

4-15-4d The dribble ends when:
"...The ball touches or is touched by an opponent and causes the dribbler to lose control."

Yeah yeah. Just cause I don't have my book with me. I'll check when I get home.

Show off.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by joseph2493

Well, I guess that rises the question... Does "A-2" touching the ball while having front court status (one foot down in the front court and the other in the air) cause the ball to gain front court status even if A-1 is dribbling.

If the touching on the leg gives it frontcourt status than we have a backcourt violation if not than we don't.

You are correct. Since A2 is not dribbling, his/her touch doesn't benefit from the "3-points touching entirely in the frontcourt" part of ball location rule. A2 causes the ball to have the same status as his/her location merely by touching the ball. When A1 then touches the ball again, it is a backcourt violation: team A had team control, the ball gained FC status by A2's touching, A2 was the last to touch the ball before it returned to the backcourt, then A1 was the first to touch the ball after it returned to the backcourt.

[joseph2493]

That's where I was going but my fellow officials disagree

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by joseph2493

That's where I was going but my fellow officials disagree

Your fellow officials are incorrect. You can tell them that I said that.

[joseph2493]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Your fellow officials are incorrect. You can tell them that I said that.

I will tell them you said that...