When should I of hit the foul?

[ATLBrvs326]

I was doing a varsity boys scrimmagae today and had a play that was in my opinion a little difficult. I am in lead ball side and the ball comes to A1 to the right of the block, in perfect position to shoot a layup. A1 gets the ball from the point guard at the top of the three point arc and he is faced in that direction. B1 is behind A1 with both hands on him obviously limiting his movement to the basket (A1 is trying to turn and shoot). I intend to watch the entire play, and hopefully A1 will get around and get the shot up cleanly. This continues for about 3-5 seconds and I am just waiting for him to turn around and play through the contact. Then B1 lets go and A1 falls back and takes 3 steps without dribbling and falls to the ground. I call foul because it was the defenses fault. The B coach goes crazy. The question is not whether I got the call right, I know I did. I just dont know if I got it at the right time. Do you think I should of got it right away, but if that is the case then wouldnt I be taking the shot away from the offense? What do you think. Also, when the coach asked what he did wrong, I told him he had both hands on the offense. He says that is a terrible call. I ignore, but should I have told him firmly, "We are not going to have any of that tonight" or just taken it with stride. Thanks.

[Drizzle]

Originally Posted by ATLBrvs326

I was doing a varsity boys scrimmagae today and had a play that was in my opinion a little difficult. I am in lead ball side and the ball comes to A1 to the right of the block, in perfect position to shoot a layup. A1 gets the ball from the point guard at the top of the three point arc and he is faced in that direction. B1 is behind A1 with both hands on him obviously limiting his movement to the basket (A1 is trying to turn and shoot). I intend to watch the entire play, and hopefully A1 will get around and get the shot up cleanly. This continues for about 3-5 seconds and I am just waiting for him to turn around and play through the contact. Then B1 lets go and A1 falls back and takes 3 steps without dribbling and falls to the ground. I call foul because it was the defenses fault. The B coach goes crazy. The question is not whether I got the call right, I know I did. I just dont know if I got it at the right time. Do you think I should of got it right away, but if that is the case then wouldnt I be taking the shot away from the offense? What do you think. Also, when the coach asked what he did wrong, I told him he had both hands on the offense. He says that is a terrible call. I ignore, but should I have told him firmly, "We are not going to have any of that tonight" or just taken it with stride. Thanks.

I think this is your answer. If B1 is limiting A1's movement with both hands on the back, I think you have a foul on B1 right then. I understand you were trying to see the whole play, but it's hard to effectively do that during a long play like the one you described. That having been said, you might the right call, just a little late.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by ATLBrvs326

I was doing a varsity boys scrimmagae today and had a play that was in my opinion a little difficult. I am in lead ball side and the ball comes to A1 to the right of the block, in perfect position to shoot a layup. A1 gets the ball from the point guard at the top of the three point arc and he is faced in that direction. B1 is behind A1 with both hands on him obviously limiting his movement to the basket (A1 is trying to turn and shoot). I intend to watch the entire play, and hopefully A1 will get around and get the shot up cleanly. This continues for about 3-5 seconds and I am just waiting for him to turn around and play through the contact. Then B1 lets go and A1 falls back and takes 3 steps without dribbling and falls to the ground. I call foul because it was the defenses fault.

Just because it's defense's fault doesn't make it a foul. Just because the defense was limiting his movement isn't automatically a foul. Two hands on is a foul, especially if he's keeping them on and pushing as a way to control A1. Why didn't you call it? Why wait 3-5 seconds?

Originally Posted by ATLBrvs326

The B coach goes crazy. The question is not whether I got the call right, I know I did. I just dont know if I got it at the right time. Do you think I should of got it right away,

Yea, you missed it. You should have called the contact when it happened. Once you let it go, then you call it when B1 pulls his hands away, and A1 falls of his own momentum, well, hhhmmmmm

Originally Posted by ATLBrvs326

but if that is the case then wouldnt I be taking the shot away from the offense? What do you think.

Taking a shot away? Did he get a shot off? Or even get in position to shoot? No, the defense took the shot away. If you think they did it illegally you call it a foul, A gets the ball back or gets penalty shots.

Originally Posted by ATLBrvs326

Also, when the coach asked what he did wrong, I told him he had both hands on the offense. He says that is a terrible call.

Having both hands on is indeed a foul, but you waited until he didn't have either hand on to call it. I'm not saying it was a bad call, just that your timing wasn't good.

Originally Posted by ATLBrvs326

I ignore, but should I have told him firmly, "We are not going to have any of that tonight" or just taken it with stride. Thanks.

You should have said, "Coach, it was a late whistle. Next time I'll get it more quickly." THen you have to do it.!!

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by ATLBrvs326

I was doing a varsity boys scrimmage today...

Actually, that was your mistake.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by ATLBrvs326

A1 gets the ball from the point guard at the top of the three point arc and he is faced in that direction. B1 is behind A1 with both hands on him

Both hands on the ballhandler. Automatic.

[Back In The Saddle]

Agree. Get this one early. It will both save you the grief from the late call (it's usually a tough sell to call a foul on a post up for action before the shooting motion began when the whistle isn't until after the shot) and it should clean up the post play for the rest of the game. That should keep you from being in that situation again.

[Coltdoggs]

I would have hit that when the jockeying for position was going on....Two hands = tweet

We live and learn every time on the floor....

[Junker]

Originally Posted by ATLBrvs326

I am in lead ball side and the ball comes to A1 to the right of the block, in perfect position to shoot a layup. A1 gets the ball from the point guard at the top of the three point arc and he is faced in that direction. B1 is behind A1 with both hands on him obviously limiting his movement to the basket (A1 is trying to turn and shoot). Thanks.

Maybe you are getting grief because as described, you are calling something way out of your area. Where are your partners?

[btaylor64]

In regards to plays involving the ball handler, not limited to but the ball handler especially, I would suggest not to ref with an advantage/disadvantage Philosophy but more of a RSBQ (Rhythm, Speed, Balance, Quickness) philosophy. If the dribbler was affected in regards to RSBQ then blow the whistle, if not then the contact was marginal, incidental, or inconsequential, in which you would play on. Also, if there are guidelines in place such as two hands on, forearm, etc. take advantage of the guideline and call the foul, you can't go wrong there. You can tell the coach "(Name of coach here) he had two hands on the dribbler and by our guidelines that is an automatic foul."

[Coltdoggs]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

In regards to plays involving the ball handler, not limited to but the ball handler especially, I would suggest not to ref with an advantage/disadvantage Philosophy but more of a RSBQ (Rhythm, Speed, Balance, Quickness) philosophy. If the dribbler was affected in regards to RSBQ then blow the whistle, if not then the contact was marginal, incidental, or inconsequential, in which you would play on. Also, if there are guidelines in place such as two hands on, forearm, etc. take advantage of the guideline and call the foul, you can't go wrong there. You can tell the coach "(Name of coach here) he had two hands on the dribbler and by our guidelines that is an automatic foul."

RSQB....interesting...I think I have been calling like this in my time (just didn't realize that was the philosophy! )...A lot of coaches want stuff called but when the contact really does nothing, I generally let sleeping dogs lie....

Never fails if you let them play you get the "Clean it up" comment and if you are cleaning it up you get the "Let them play" comments!

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

I would suggest not to ref with an advantage/disadvantage Philosophy

If the dribbler was affected in regards to RSBQ then blow the whistle, if not then the contact was marginal, incidental, or inconsequential, in which you would play on.

Um, isn't that judging advantage or disadvantage?

I like the SBQ (I think the "R" is for redundant) guidelines. I try to use them and they help me. But I think it's unhelpful to imply that they are something different or separate from judging advantage/disadvantage. In calling fouls, we MUST judge advantage/disadvantage. The SBQ guidelines simply give us a slightly more concrete to do that.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Coltdoggs

RSQB....interesting...I think I have been calling like this in my time (just didn't realize that was the philosophy! )

They've been calling the usage of hands by a defender by using just about the exact same philosophy during the close to 50 years that I've been associated with basketball officiating. Every few years someone just comes up with a different way of labeling the exact same thing, and they then think that they've discovered the Holy Grail. Unfortunately, same old..same old....they're just re-inventing the wheel. RSBQ is the current buzzword, I guess. Someone will come up with something else to call it and RSBQ will be passe, same as all of the other terms used in the past.

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Um, isn't that judging advantage or disadvantage?

I like the SBQ (I think the "R" is for redundant) guidelines. I try to use them and they help me. But I think it's unhelpful to imply that they are something different or separate from judging advantage/disadvantage. In calling fouls, we MUST judge advantage/disadvantage. The SBQ guidelines simply give us a slightly more concrete to do that.

Personally, I believe there is a difference. Some guys get knocked off there intended path and yet they still have a chance of beating the player, so if you ref adv./disadv. then you no call this cause he still has a shot at laying it up and in, whereas RSBQ says that this is a foul regardless and you don't "save a foul" on the defender. He deserves the foul, regardless if the offensive player has been put at a disadvantage or not. JMO. Alot of people do think this is the same, I just think it is a little different.