5 Second OB Call...

[bigdog5142]

Just want to see if you would've called this...I had a 7th grade girls game yesterday that my partner did not show for. (He did show up at the start of the 2nd quarter for the 8th grade game.) The visiting team was, well...just not good. They probably had not every played basketball before this season. There was NO hustle in this team whatsoever. The coach was also late for the game. I was trying to be as lenient as possible, as the team was down 20 by the second quarter. However, I had been allowing like 5-7 seconds for throw-ins...finally, after a girl had the ball in her possession (midway through 2nd quarter), it literally took 7 seconds just for a girl to get to the ball (they walked to get the ball, etc.)...I counted to 10 and called a 5 second call. The coach went ballistic about the call...how it was ridiculous. He had walked to the baseline in order to tell me this. I told the coach that we ref the rules, not the score and to promptly get back into the coaching box. That was the last I heard from him and I remained lenient the rest of the game. Good call or not? I approached the coach after the game to tell him why I made the call...that I was trying to help him out as a coach so that he could teach his girls the rule and have something to reference. Maybe I should've called it sooner...but just wanted your opinions. Thanks!

[Adam]

Yes, I would have called it, and he would have had his first T and its accompanying seat belt for going ballistic like that.
I wouldn't have explained anything after the game, either. I especially wouldn't have told him I was helping him teach the kids the rules.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by bigdog5142

1) However, I had been allowing like 5-7 seconds for throw-ins...finally, after a girl had the ball in her possession (midway through 2nd quarter), it literally took 7 seconds just for a girl to get to the ball (they walked to get the ball, etc.)...I counted to 10 and called a 5 second call. The coach went ballistic about the call...how it was ridiculous. He had walked to the baseline in order to tell me this. I told the coach that we ref the rules, not the score and to promptly get back into the coaching box. That was the last I heard from him and I remained lenient the rest of the game. Good call or not?

2) I approached the coach after the game to tell him why I made the call...that I was trying to help him out as a coach so that he could teach his girls the rule and have something to reference.

1) Unless they were gaining some kind of advantage out of it, I wouldn't worry too much about their lack of hustle on throw-ins. And if they're down by 20 that quick, they aren't gaining any advantage by delaying anything. That's especially true for crappy MS girls teams. I'd either ignore it, or maybe quickly mention to the coach if I got a chance that his kids are a l'il slow on throw-ins. I thought that the way that you did handle the coach arguing was fine though.

2) Unless you are asked, there's no real need for an explanation at the end of a game unless the coach asked you for one. Approaching coaches after a game to discuss rules isn't a good idea if you're initiating the discussion. They've got their own post-game thing to do, and they don't need you in their grille pontificating. Don't worry about the coach doing their job. Leave the coaching to them and just worry about the officiating end of it.

As always, jmo.

[Back In The Saddle]

In this case, perhaps it would be better to have a word first with the coach, or the girls, about getting only 5 seconds. Then if they don't pick up the pace, call it. At this level the players often benefit from a little explaining. But they benefit a lot more IMHO from telling them what the expectation (rule) is, and then enforcing it.

Just my $0.02

[Adam]

I read the OP to mean she took 7 seconds to get to the ball, and then held it for another 10 before he made the call.

Did I read it wrong?

[mick]

7th grade games....
Patience and leniency should be in your pocket, and a smile should be on your face.
Relax and enjoy.

I agree with you that you may have "said" [but not called] something earlier, so that problem may have gone away.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by bigdog5142

I had a 7th grade girls game...
The visiting team was, well...just not good. They probably had not every played basketball before this season. There was NO hustle in this team whatsoever. ...
I was trying to be as lenient as possible, as the team was down 20 by the second quarter. However, I had been allowing like 5-7 seconds for throw-ins...finally, after a girl had the ball in her possession (midway through 2nd quarter), it literally took 7 seconds just for a girl to get to the ball (they walked to get the ball, etc.)...I counted to 10 and called a 5 second call.
....
Maybe I should've called it sooner...but just wanted your opinions. Thanks!

Not a "bad" call but also not a "good" call.

It's not a bad thing to be lenient and call the game to the ability of the players and be hightly tolerant in games where teams are just learning. Everyone involved has more fun, learns more, and generaly benefits from a game that is called in a way that expects the players to meet some threshold that is challenging but not completely discouraging.

However, you ignored it for 1 1/2 quarters then, bam, you call it. It was a suprise call on a situation that apparently had happened just the same for what sounds like at least 10-15 times already (20 point lead).

Two better options:

1. Call it earlier...at the beginning and be consistent....or back off a little at a time.
2. If you're going to change what you're calling tell the coaches and teams that you're going to change what you're calling.

Anytime you've established a pattern of enforcement, it is unfair to change it substantially without telling the coach and/or players. Not telling them is asking for a situation exactly like you got.

Again, the call itself was neither good nor bad...it was the surprise nature of it that was bad. Communicate such things with the coaches it will make your games go a lot smoother.

[bigdog5142]

Cameron, I totally agree with your assessment...that's why I struggled calling it in the first place as I did feel as though I was being a bit inconsistant. However, it was literally about 15 seconds on this throw-in. I just didn't feel as though I could let that one go...I even encouraged the girls to get to the ball and throw it in...no response. I think next time I'll call it at first...and then get more lenient as the score permits...pre se. Junior High games are often times harder to officiate than JV and Varsity games...as I'm sure you all have experienced.

[BillyMac]

From Jurassic Referee: "Unless they were gaining some kind of advantage out of it, I wouldn't worry too much about their lack of hustle on throw-ins. And if they're down by 20 that quick, they aren't gaining any advantage by delaying anything. That's especially true for crappy MS girls teams. I'd either ignore it, or maybe quickly mention to the coach if I got a chance that his kids are a l'il slow on throw-ins."

Jurassic Referee: Are you using the Tower Philosphy/Principal of Advantage/Disadvantage/Spirit and Intent of the Rules for a VIOLATION? I thought that you always advocated that the Tower Philosphy/Principal of Advantage/Disadvantage/Spirit and Intent of the Rules was for FOULS only?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

From Jurassic Referee: "Unless they were gaining some kind of advantage out of it, I wouldn't worry too much about their lack of hustle on throw-ins. And if they're down by 20 that quick, they aren't gaining any advantage by delaying anything. That's especially true for crappy MS girls teams. I'd either ignore it, or maybe quickly mention to the coach if I got a chance that his kids are a l'il slow on throw-ins."

Jurassic Referee: Are you using the Tower Philosphy/Principal of Advantage/Disadvantage/Spirit and Intent of the Rules for a VIOLATION? I thought that you always advocated that the Tower Philosphy/Principal of Advantage/Disadvantage/Spirit and Intent of the Rules was for FOULS only?

Two Words:

Middle School

[blindofficial]

I agree with some of the previous comments. Consistency is the key! If you're not going to calling it the first time it happens, be prepared to take the heat when you finally call it the 5th time it happens. I look at it this way: I'll probably see this team again and if they know I'll call the calls when they happen, the game will go smoother (crossing fingers).

Right?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

From Jurassic Referee: "Unless they were gaining some kind of advantage out of it, I wouldn't worry too much about their lack of hustle on throw-ins. And if they're down by 20 that quick, they aren't gaining any advantage by delaying anything. That's especially true for crappy MS girls teams. I'd either ignore it, or maybe quickly mention to the coach if I got a chance that his kids are a l'il slow on throw-ins."

Jurassic Referee: Are you using the Tower Philosphy/Principal of Advantage/Disadvantage/Spirit and Intent of the Rules for a VIOLATION? I thought that you always advocated that the Tower Philosphy/Principal of Advantage/Disadvantage/Spirit and Intent of the Rules was for FOULS only?

Three words:

See Snaqwell's response.

[Jim Henry]

Starting my 7th season on Nov. 5 as a ref and have done a majority of my games for middle and junior high teams. My philosophy is to call the game by the rules with the understanding that in the grade schools there is some flexibility. But I have never gone overboard with it. Especially on the OB 5 second. When you are doing the visible count it has to be enforced. In the paint I have been more flexible and have allowed more then 3 seconds early in the game but tell the young ones to get out of the zone. When they don’t next time, they get the whistle. BTW, to comment on an earlier comment, once you get into high school games, they are cleaner and easier to call.

[Mark Padgett]

FWIW - we tell all the refs in our rec league, which works games in grades 3-12 (although the vast majority are in 3-8) to make the calls on these infractions. It's not that we want to be nasty (at least that's what I tell the parents), but our philosophy is to demonstrate to the kids what is and what is not a violation, and that there are consequences to their actions. We feel that's the best way for them to learn and we use this as a "teaching tool". Our hope is that after getting called for a violation and losing possession a few times, they'll learn not to do that. Our experience over more than 25 years is that this works a lot better than just continuing to give warnings or to just "let things go".

[mick]

Originally Posted by Jim Henry

...When you are doing the visible count it has to be enforced.

Visible counts can start later and last longer in some games.