BktBallRef was right!! (Sorry, Nevada)

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Read the rule. "...the team not in control..." The rule says nothing about team control. On a throw-in, the thrower has control of the ball. The statement in the rule book has nothing to do with team or player control at this point. If I'm the thrower, I have control. If you are my opponent, you are a defender.

Rule 4-12-6--"Neither team control nor player control exists during a ....throw-in...."

If a teammate committed a foul before the throw-in ended, would you really call that foul a team control foul?

[just another ref]

Read the rule. "...the team not in control..." The rule says nothing about team control. On a throw-in, the thrower has control of the ball. The statement in the rule book has nothing to do with team or player control at this point. If I'm the thrower, I have control. If you are my opponent, you are a defender.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Rule 4-12-6--"Neither player or team control exists during a dead ball throw-in...."

If a teammate committed a foul before the throw-in ended, would you really call that foul a team control foul?

We're not talking about team control. We are talking about one team being in control, thus making a player on the other team a defender.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

We're not talking about team control. We are talking about one team being in control, thus making a player on the other team a defender.

Please tell me that you aren't serious.

A team is NOT in control when a thrower has the ball OOB during a throw-in. Neither team. That's a basic.

I'm talking about what the rules say. Nothing else. The rules say that neither team is in control during a throw-in. The rules also say that neither team can establish team control until one of their players establish player control. When there's no team control, there's no defender.

[just another ref]

Read the rule. "...the team not in control..." The rule says nothing about team control. On a throw-in, the thrower has control of the ball. The statement in the rule book has nothing to do with team or player control at this point. If I'm the thrower, I have control. If you are my opponent, you are a defender.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Please tell me that you aren't serious.

A team is NOT in control when a thrower has the ball OOB during a throw-in. Neither team. That's a basic.

I'm talking about what the rules say. Nothing else. The rules say that neither team is in control during a throw-in. The rules also say that neither team can establish team control until one of their players establish player control. When there's no team control, there's no defender.

The above quote was cut and pasted from the original thread. It was from Tony. Ask him if he was serious.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

The above quote was cut and pasted from the original thread. It was from Tony. Ask him if he was serious.

I can't believe he was serious either then.

Simply holding the ball does not equate to team control ever. A player can stand at the scorers table at half time holding on to the game ball. That doesn't mean that his team now has control and the other team is on defense.

If there's no team control, there's no defender.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

A player can stand at the scorers table at half time holding on to the game ball. That doesn't mean that his team now has control and the other team is on defense.

Or...a player can take his favorite game ball to bed with him during nap time and rub it up against his face along with his favorite blankie. Believe me, if he does that, he's definitely not in control.

Damn - I've got to find those meds.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

Or...a player can take his favorite game ball to bed with him during nap time and rub it up against his face along with his favorite blankie. Believe me, if he does that, he's definitely not in control.

In that case he might need a defender....a public defender.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

I can't believe he was serious either then.

Simply holding the ball does not equate to team control ever. A player can stand at the scorers table at half time holding on to the game ball. That doesn't mean that his team now has control and the other team is on defense.

This is exactly right except under ncaa rules for throw in.

If there's no team control, there's no defender.

Well, here it gets trickier. Certainly for the purposes of time out only "the offense" can be granted a time out during a throw in. So thinking in terms of offense/defense helps for at least this situation. Not sure it helps elsewhere though, not worth bothering with IMO

But I agree with your over-all message.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

Well, here it gets trickier. Certainly for the purposes of time out only "the offense" can be granted a time out during a throw in. So thinking in terms of offense/defense helps for at least this situation. Not sure it helps elsewhere though, not worth bothering with IMO

Good point. But.....that's why I think that they wrote the TO rule as only to be granted when the ball is in control of or at the disposal of his/her team. The thrower has the ball at his disposal, without control(using rules semantics for the definition of control).

To be quite honest, I really don't know what difference all this verbiage makes anyway. We're still gonna call the play the way the rules lay it out, and the way that the rules lay it out, it don't make no nevermind who is called the defender on this particular play. It's a violation no matter which of the 10 players does it.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Good point. But.....that's why I think that they wrote the TO rule as only to be granted when the ball is in control of or at the disposal of his/her team. The thrower has the ball at his disposal, without control(using rules semantics for the definition of control).

To be quite honest, I really don't know what difference all this verbiage makes anyway. We're still gonna call the play the way the rules lay it out, and the way that the rules lay it out, it don't make no nevermind who is called the defender on this particular play. It's a violation no matter which of the 10 players does it.

Agree on both of your points...it's just more navel gazing from the navel gazing committee.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

Agree on both of your points...it's just more navel gazing from the navel gazing committee.

Sounds like a clear case of apples and oranges.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Sounds like a clear case of apples and oranges.

Shut up.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Please tell me that you aren't serious.

A team is NOT in control when a thrower has the ball OOB during a throw-in. Neither team. That's a basic.

I'm talking about what the rules say. Nothing else. The rules say that neither team is in control during a throw-in. The rules also say that neither team can establish team control until one of their players establish player control. When there's no team control, there's no defender.

The rule book disagrees with you.

9-9-3
A player from the team not in control (defensive player or during a jump ball or throw-in) may legally jump from his/her frontcourt, secure control of the ball with both feet off the floor and return to the floor with one or both feet in the backcourt. The player may make a normal landing and it makes no difference whether the first foot down is in the frontcourt or backcourt.


During a throw-in, the thrower has control of the ball. It has nothing to do with team control or player control. A defensive player is a member of the opponent of the thrower.

The fact that there's no team control during a throw-in does not mean that one team is not on defense.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Good point. But.....that's why I think that they wrote the TO rule as only to be granted when the ball is in control of or at the disposal of his/her team. The thrower has the ball at his disposal, without control(using rules semantics for the definition of control).

There is no NFHS Basketball Rules definition for the word control. There are only definitions for player control and team control.

Therefore, we rely on Webster's definition, just like we do for any other word that's not specifically defined in Rule 4.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

The rule bopok disagrees with you.

Rule Bopok - isn't he one of those Pakistani philosophers? Why would I care if he agrees or disagrees?

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Sounds like a clear case of apples and oranges.

You got me.

And I was focussed on not spelling it naval...