Bounce pass to self

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Me

The dribble may start when the player releases the ball , but it doesn't become a dribble until he touches it again.

Originally Posted by just another ref

This is the problem I have. Is this written anywhere? If so, I would like to see it.

No, it isn't. That's the point. No where does it say an official must use judgment here; see the result.

If the actual result of an intended pass can be an illegal dribble, it makes sense that the actual result of an intended dribble can be something else (a steal, a pass, etc.) There are so multiple reasons a player will release the ball towards the floor, so we have to have some way of determining which is which. As I stated before, if the rules allow me a reasonable reason to continue play without a whistle, that's the interpretation I'm taking.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

If the actual result of an intended pass can be an illegal dribble, it makes sense that the actual result of an intended dribble can be something else (a steal, a pass, etc.)

Granted, if someone else grabs it before it hits the floor, but when it is "pushed to the floor," it has met the definition of a dribble.

There are so multiple reasons a player will release the ball towards the floor, so we have to have some way of determining which is which.

There is a way, watch the play. For the most part, the start of a dribble and a pass simply do not look alike. If you have any doubt, by all means hold the whistle. But in the rare instance that say: A1, who has used his dribble, forgets and pushes the ball to the floor. The ball bounces off of A1's own foot, and is recovered by A2. Legal play?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Granted, if someone else grabs it before it hits the floor, but when it is "pushed to the floor," it has met the definition of a dribble.

I just caught this, but whether the ball hits the floor shouldn't be relevant. If you're going to call a violation before it touches the "dribbler," you would need to call it before it hits the floor. IOW, if he attempts to dribble, and pushes the ball towards the floor only to have it kicked by the defense before it hits the floor, you'd need to call the illegal dribble violation and give the ball to the defense.

Right?

[mick]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I just caught this, but whether the ball hits the floor shouldn't be relevant. If you're going to call a violation before it touches the "dribbler," you would need to call it before it hits the floor. IOW, if he attempts to dribble, and pushes the ball towards the floor only to have it kicked by the defense before it hits the floor, you'd need to call the illegal dribble violation and give the ball to the defense.

Right?

No. ...Patient whistle waits for entire play.
Unreasonable reasoning.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by mick

No. ...Patient whistle waits for entire play.
Unreasonable reasoning.

I agree with you, but the logic which tells JAR he needs to call an illegal dribble violation as soon as the dribble starts precludes any distinction between whether it touches the floor or not. I say wait until the "dribble" returns to the hand of the dribbler, he says it must be called even if the defense swipes the ball before it hits his hand. If he's going to do this, he has to call it even if the ball is kicked or swiped before it hits the floor.

[mick]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

... he says it must be called even if the defense swipes the ball before it hits his hand.....

He not sayin' that to me. He's only sayin' that to listeners.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

....... the logic which tells JAR he needs to call an illegal dribble violation as soon as the dribble starts precludes any distinction between whether it touches the floor or not.

This is not my logic. It comes straight out of the books.

4-15-1: A dribble is is ball movement caused by a player in control who bats or pushes the ball to the floor......


This is directly supported by case play 4.15.4 SITUATION A.

.....when he/she pushed the ball to the floor a violation occurred.......


How much clearer could it be?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

This is not my logic. It comes straight out of the books.

4-15-1: A dribble is is ball movement caused by a player in control who bats or pushes the ball to the floor......


How much clearer could it be?

Also, anyone without blinkers on could also find straight out of the books....

4-15-3: The dribble may be started by pushing, throwing or batting the ball to the floor before the pivot foot is lifted.

4-31: A pass is movement of the ball caused by a player who throws, bats or rolls the ball to another player.

4-21: A fumble is the accidental loss of player control when a ball unintentionally drops or slips from a players grasp.

It's amazing what you can find if you use the whole rule book.

How much clearer could it be... indeed?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I just caught this, but whether the ball hits the floor shouldn't be relevant. If you're going to call a violation before it touches the "dribbler," you would need to call it before it hits the floor. IOW, if he attempts to dribble, and pushes the ball towards the floor only to have it kicked by the defense before it hits the floor, you'd need to call the illegal dribble violation and give the ball to the defense.

Right?

If it is grabbed before it hits the floor, I would think this would happen so quickly that it would be impossible to separate this from being stolen directly from out of the original player's hands. I would have to see it, but my first thought is this is a no call. But it A1 pushes an illegal dribble to the floor and it hits a foot, his own or another player's, I think it would still be an illegal dribble.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I just caught this, but whether the ball hits the floor shouldn't be relevant. If you're going to call a violation before it touches the "dribbler," you would need to call it before it hits the floor. IOW, if he attempts to dribble, and pushes the ball towards the floor only to have it kicked by the defense before it hits the floor, you'd need to call the illegal dribble violation and give the ball to the defense.

Right?

Nope, the definition of a dribble (4-15-1), which this action has to meet in order to be illegal, says "...or pushes the ball to the floor once or several times."

It doesn't say "towards the floor", it says "to the floor." So if the ball doesn't get there, then the action is not a dribble.