Bounce pass to self

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Hard to argue with your logic, but, I suppose that I still kind of tend to combine the two questions. My idea is by the time the ball touches the floor, usually the official should be able to judge whether it was a dribble and not a pass or a fumble. This goes hand in hand with the definition of a dribble: "a player.....pushes the ball to the floor...." This definition does not mention the ball being touched after being pushed to the floor.

The thing is, there's no need to make this judgment. Once the ball either returns to the bouncer or doesn't, judgment is removed. Yes, there are times when we need to judge intent. This isn't one of them.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

The thing is, there's no need to make this judgment. Once the ball either returns to the bouncer or doesn't, judgment is removed. Yes, there are times when we need to judge intent. This isn't one of them.

I think this is true 99 percent of the time. But, that one time when the defender knocks the ball out of bounds two inches before it touches the illegal dribbler's hand, I think you have to call the first violation first.

[Jurassic Referee]

Silly monkeys

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I think this is true 99 percent of the time. But, that one time when the defender knocks the ball out of bounds two inches before it touches the illegal dribbler's hand, I think you have to call the first violation first.

My point is that waiting for the result allows you to determine whether it was a dribble or not; removing the need for judgment on this play. You can simply wait about a quarter second and the result tells you everything you need to know.

The dribble may start when the player releases the ball (this definition tells us when a player must lift his pivot foot prior to dribbling in order to avoid traveling), but it doesn't become a dribble until he touches it again.

In old Iowa girls' rules, back when they played 6 on 6 "half court" basketball and were only allowed to bounce (dribble) the ball twice, the start of the dribble was defined differently. By definition, the dribble started when the player began pushing the ball towards the floor. It was not necessary to actually release the ball prior to lifting the pivot foot, only to begin the pushing motion towards the floor. By your definition, an illegal dribble would then occur if a player, who had already used her dribble, began to push the ball towards the floor: regardless of the result of that push. Yet it seems absurd.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

The dribble may start when the player releases the ball , but it doesn't become a dribble until he touches it again.

This is the problem I have. Is this written anywhere? If so, I would like to see it.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Me

The dribble may start when the player releases the ball , but it doesn't become a dribble until he touches it again.

Originally Posted by just another ref

This is the problem I have. Is this written anywhere? If so, I would like to see it.

No, it isn't. That's the point. No where does it say an official must use judgment here; see the result.

If the actual result of an intended pass can be an illegal dribble, it makes sense that the actual result of an intended dribble can be something else (a steal, a pass, etc.) There are so multiple reasons a player will release the ball towards the floor, so we have to have some way of determining which is which. As I stated before, if the rules allow me a reasonable reason to continue play without a whistle, that's the interpretation I'm taking.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

If the actual result of an intended pass can be an illegal dribble, it makes sense that the actual result of an intended dribble can be something else (a steal, a pass, etc.)

Granted, if someone else grabs it before it hits the floor, but when it is "pushed to the floor," it has met the definition of a dribble.

There are so multiple reasons a player will release the ball towards the floor, so we have to have some way of determining which is which.

There is a way, watch the play. For the most part, the start of a dribble and a pass simply do not look alike. If you have any doubt, by all means hold the whistle. But in the rare instance that say: A1, who has used his dribble, forgets and pushes the ball to the floor. The ball bounces off of A1's own foot, and is recovered by A2. Legal play?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Granted, if someone else grabs it before it hits the floor, but when it is "pushed to the floor," it has met the definition of a dribble.

I just caught this, but whether the ball hits the floor shouldn't be relevant. If you're going to call a violation before it touches the "dribbler," you would need to call it before it hits the floor. IOW, if he attempts to dribble, and pushes the ball towards the floor only to have it kicked by the defense before it hits the floor, you'd need to call the illegal dribble violation and give the ball to the defense.

Right?