Bounce pass to self

[Nevadaref]

Case plays have been known to contradict each other. There are a couple of reasons for this.
a. When a new case play is added the editor and current members of the rules committee often don't make an exhaustive, or even accurate, search of existing play rulings which will be affected.
b. As the years go by the committee members change and these individuals have different opinions on certain situations. When a new group of individuals adds a new case play, it may not match up with what was previously written.
c. We know what year rule changes were made, but it is more difficult to pinpoint the year in which certain case plays were first published. This makes it nearly impossible to know which one should have priority when they disagree. As the years pass, no one other than MTD, can tell you which came first.
d. The game evolves and certain actions that once were rare become common. Players use different tactics and the officials and rules makers must learn to cope with them. Sometimes the older language in the books isn't well-suited to handle the newer practices.

You have certainly found something in one of the books published by the NFHS which obviously supports your position. However, it is possible that the author of that case play did not intend it to be used in a wider context. That author may not have envisioned what an official should do if a player in this situation were to bounce the ball between his legs to a trailing teammate.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

You have certainly found something in one of the books published by the NFHS which obviously supports your position. However, it is possible that the author of that case play did not intend it to be used in a wider context.

My whole argument is not based on a case play, but on the definition of a dribble: a player.......pushes the ball to the floor once or several times.

When the ball hits the floor, that can be considered a dribble whether it touches the player's hand again or not. What it the defender slaps the ball out of bounds on its return flight straight up toward the illegal dribbler's hand?
You gonna give the ball back to the offense, citing "That might have been a pass."

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by just another ref

My whole argument is not based on a case play, but on the definition of a dribble: a player.......pushes the ball to the floor once or several times.

When the ball hits the floor, that can be considered a dribble whether it touches the player's hand again or not. What it the defender slaps the ball out of bounds on its return flight straight up toward the illegal dribbler's hand?
You gonna give the ball back to the offense, citing "That might have been a pass."

That's a legitimate question. That and what if the defender fouls the offensive player during this same time frame (the time between after the ball has struck the floor, but prior to the offensive player touching it again)?

Certainly there is a need to know the exact point at which the violation occurs. The case play which you have cited provides the best clarification which I have seen. Of course, player control is of primary concern. If at any point the official deems that player control has ceased, then there is no longer a dribbler.

I can create a scenario in which a player who has already dribbled tosses the ball out in front of him several feet and then takes off after it, but before reaching it an opponent fouls this player. What should an official do?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

That's a legitimate question. That and what if the defender fouls the offensive player during this same time frame (the time between after the ball has struck the floor, but prior to the offensive player touching it again)?

Certainly there is a need to know the exact point at which the violation occurs. The case play which you have cited provides the best clarification which I have seen. Of course, player control is of primary concern. If at any point the official deems that player control has ceased, then there is no longer a dribbler.

I can create a scenario in which a player who has already dribbled tosses the ball out in front of him several feet and then takes off after it, but before reaching it an opponent fouls this player. What should an official do?

If he tosses the ball several feet out in front, I think anyone would assume it was a pass attempt and wait to see what happens. In this case, I would think the foul certainly would be the call.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by just another ref

If he tosses the ball several feet out in front, I think anyone would assume it was a pass attempt and wait to see what happens. In this case, I would think the foul certainly would be the call.

Ok, but what if there was no other teammate anywhere on that half of the court? Similar to a play that you proposed earlier in this thread.

My point is that officiating of plays cannot be reduced to writing in a book. A living person must observe the action on the court and use quality judgment to make whatever decision is appropriate for the given situation. That is the art of officiating.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Ok, but what if there was no other teammate anywhere on that half of the court? Similar to a play that you proposed earlier in this thread.

My point is that officiating of plays cannot be reduced to writing in a book. A living person must observe the action on the court and use quality judgment to make whatever decision is appropriate for the given situation. That is the art of officiating.

You could think that he had a hallucination. The point I have tried all day to make is that if you are dealing with a remotely gray area, by all means let it play out. But the fact is, the vast majority of the time, when a player starts a dribble, it bears virtually no resemblance to anything that might be construed as a pass. Having met this airtight criteria, I have no problem sounding the whistle when the ball hits the floor.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

The point I have tried all day to make is that if you are dealing with a remotely gray area, by all means let it play out. But the fact is, the vast majority of the time, when a player starts a dribble, it bears virtually no resemblance to anything that might be construed as a pass. Having met this airtight criteria, I have no problem sounding the whistle when the ball hits the floor.

And nobody in the world agrees with your point. You're still contradicting yourself constantly also by saying "let it play out" while you keep insisting ad nauseum on advocating NOT letting it play out. And you're also still refusing to acknowledge that the language used in the definition of a "pass" uses the exact same airtight criteria as that of a "dribble".

And I see that you've changed your cute l'il tag line to a possum and me also. Maybe you should change it to a possum and the world though. That's because the whole damn world disagrees with you.

Don't let any of the above stop you though. Continue continuing.