Bounce pass to self

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

NF 4-15-4(c) states the dribble ends when the dribbler simultaneously touches (not bounces) the ball with both hands.

So if the ball is coming up on a dribble bounce and the player touches both hands to the ball, the dribble ends at that point. If the result of that touching with both hands is that the ball returns to the floor, then you have an illegal dribble (unless it's a fumble). Conclusion: it is not legal to bounce the ball with both hands at the end of a dribble.

Please tell me that you're not serious. Are you really going to call an illegal second dribble if a player bounce-passes the ball to another player at the end of a dribble

The act of touching the ball with both hands ends a dribble but that act by itself is not illegal. There are no restrictions as to how you touch the ball with both hands. If you think differently, then cite a rule.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Are you really going to call an illegal second dribble if a player bounce-passes the ball to another player at the end of a dribble

Thanks for being the third person to make this point. Old and slooooooooowwwwwwwww.

[Mark Padgett]

Guys - I took JRs post about bouncing the ball with both hands at the end of a dribble to imply you could dribble with both hands again for your "final" dribble, not that you could start a bounce pass. That was what I was addressing as being wrong. As I stated in my follow-up, obviously you can start a bounce pass with both hands after you have picked up your dribble.

I hope that's clear now.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

Guys - I took JRs post about bouncing the ball with both hands at the end of a dribble to imply you could dribble with both hands again for your "final" dribble, not that you could start a bounce pass. That was what I was addressing as being wrong.

You're not dribbling again though if you never touch the ball again after 2-hand bouncing it to end your dribble.

I know exactly what you were reading into it, Mark---the exact same thing that Nevada was trying to suggest. According to NFHS rule 4-15-1, one of the ways that you can start a dribble is by bouncing it to the floor with both hands. Unfortunately, to call it the way that you and Nevada are suggesting, you have to assume that ALL 2-handed bounces to the floor are the start of a dribble. Well, that's just not true. You can have a bounce pass, fumble, bounce the ball hard and then run past it, leaving it for a trailer to pick up, etc. If you call immediate violations on those as soon as the dribbler pushes the ball to the floor, you will look like an idiot if it does turn out to be a bounce pass. You will also have no rules backing to make that call. To decide which is which, you have to wait until you see the result of the 2-handed bounce. If the player doing so does not touch the ball again, I don't know how anyone can say with certainty that it is a second illegal dribble. I also can't think of any definitive rule that states that it is a violation either.

To call the play properly, all I'm saying is that you have to wait and see what happens after the ball is 2-handedly bounced.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

I know exactly what you were reading into it, Mark---the exact same thing that Nevada was trying to suggest. According to NFHS rule 4-15-1, one of the ways that you can start a dribble is by bouncing it to the floor with both hands. Unfortunately, to call it the way that you and Nevada are suggesting, you have to assume that ALL 2-handed bounces to the floor are the start of a dribble.

What I was reading into it was this: I thought you meant that the last dribble could be with two hands without a violation.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

What I was reading into it was this: I thought you meant that the last dribble could be with two hands without a violation.

Nope, I never said that. I said that the last dribble ended when it was touched with two hands. Whether there was a violation or not depends strictly on what happens after the last dribble ends. Make sense?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

If you call immediate violations on those as soon as the dribbler pushes the ball to the floor, you will look like an idiot if it does turn out to be a bounce pass. You will also have no rules backing to make that call. If the player doing so does not touch the ball again, I don't know how anyone can say with certainty that it is a second illegal dribble.

Picture this. Last second thing. Team A clears a side for star player to take the last shot. He receives a pass on the wing, takes a couple of dribbles, and stops to let time wind down. BUT, he forgets that he has no dribble left. (it happens)
When he head fakes his guy and puts the ball on the floor to start his move, is this not an immediate violation? It was not a fumble. He is the only one on his team on this whole side of the floor, so it is not a pass. So by definition 4-15-4
would this not be a violation when he "pushes the ball to the floor once" whether he subsequently touches it or not?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Picture this. Last second thing. Team A clears a side for star player to take the last shot. He receives a pass on the wing, takes a couple of dribbles, and stops to let time wind down. BUT, he forgets that he has no dribble left. (it happens)
When he head fakes his guy and puts the ball on the floor to start his move, is this not an immediate violation? It was not a fumble. He is the only one on his team on this whole side of the floor, so it is not a pass. So by definition 4-15-4
would this not be a violation when he "pushes the ball to the floor once" whether he subsequently touches it or not?

Rule 4-15-4 states that the dribble ended. It's got nothing to do with a violation that occurs after that. Rule 9-5 covers the violation.

If he pushes the ball to the floor once and then runs away from it, are you going to call that an illegal dribble also under 9-5? Iow, if he just drops the ball without touching it again, are you going to call that an illegal dribble? Or are you going to wait and see the result of the play?

Gee, call me silly but if I'm going to call an illegal dribble, I'm going to make sure that there actually was a dribble. That's just me though. You and Nevada can call it any way you want. And good luck to both of you.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Rule 4-15-4 states that the dribble ended. It's got nothing to do with a violation that occurs after that. Rule 9-5 covers the violation.

If he pushes the ball to the floor once and then runs away from it, are you going to call that an illegal dribble also under 9-5? Iow, if he just drops the ball without touching it again, are you going to call that an illegal dribble? Or are you going to wait and see the result of the play?

Gee, call me silly but if I'm going to call an illegal dribble, I'm going to make sure that there actually was a dribble. That's just me though. You and Nevada can call it any way you want. And good luck to both of you.

Now my head hurts, please make him stop.....

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

If he pushes the ball to the floor once and then runs away from it, are you going to call that an illegal dribble also under 9-5? Iow, if he just drops the ball without touching it again, are you going to call that an illegal dribble? Or are you going to wait and see the result of the play?

Gee, call me silly but if I'm going to call an illegal dribble, I'm going to make sure that there actually was a dribble. That's just me though. You and Nevada can call it any way you want. And good luck to both of you.

By definition, a dribble is when the ball is pushed to the floor. Therefore, in my judgment, if the first push to the floor is a dribble, not a drop, not a bounce pass, that is when the violation occurs, not on a second touch. What if the defender picks his pocket after the ball is first pushed to the floor, does this save a violation? I think not.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

1) When he head fakes his guy and puts the ball on the floor to start his move, is this not an immediate violation? It was not a fumble. He is the only one on his team on this whole side of the floor, so it is not a pass.

2)So by definition 4-15-4
would this not be a violation when he "pushes the ball to the floor once" whether he subsequently touches it or not?

1) No. How do you know it wasn't a pass?

2) No. How do you know it wasn't a pass?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

1) No. How do you know it wasn't a pass?

2) No. How do you know it wasn't a pass?

This, like so many others, is a judgment call. If, in my judgment, it is clearly a dribble when pushed to the floor, that is when it is a violation.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Thanks for being the third person to make this point. Old and slooooooooowwwwwwwww.

Hell, in my prime, I was young and slooooooooooow. I never was a Speedy Gonzalez like that Chuck Whatisname that used to post here.